Clint Murphy 00:03
Welcome to the pursuit of learning podcast. I’m your host, Clint Murphy. My goal is for each of us to grow personally, professionally, and financially, one conversation at a time. To do that, we will have conversations with subject matter experts across a variety of modalities. My job, as your host, will be to dig out those golden nuggets of wisdom that will facilitate our growth. Join me on this pursuit. If you’re interested in starting a business or building a brand, there are a few things that you need to understand: communicating with your audience, writing copy, and those are the cornerstone of marketing. Today’s guest Brian Kurtz has been in this business for 40 years, working for some of the top direct marketing agencies. He gives us a crystal clear roadmap to grow our business, make more money, and maximize our impact. Well, I hope you enjoy the conversation. Brian, welcome to the podcast. For our guests who may not have learned about you yet. Can you share a brief bio and then we will dive into your book?

Brian Kurtz 01:28
Yeah, so a brief bio, have to do 40 years in what three minutes or so. But I started my direct marketing career at a company called Boardroom Inc, which was a newsletter publisher, but an iconic direct marketer, direct mail company in the 1980s. My first day at Boardroom was the day Ronald Reagan was shot. It’s a momentous day, Ronald Reagan survived and I started my 40 year career in direct marketing. And so I started as a List manager. And most people probably listening don’t even know what that is. I didn’t either by the way. A list manager is someone who, in direct mail would manage the lists of a company. So that that’s the way you could get to the audience. So we published newsletters and books. So there was no advertising, you know, newsletters, unlike magazines, don’t have advertising. So the only way to get to the names and the audience was through with the lists. And it so happened that Boardroom managed this list in house, most companies sent their list to an outside List Manager. And so I had the privilege of managing the Boardroom list, which was an enviable position, because everybody used the Boardroom lists, they were names. And this we’ll get into this when we get into some of the intricacies of direct marketing. But the names were so powerful, because for a number of reasons, one, because they were affluent executives, you know, reading information on taxes, on finances on there, on health executives, and they all were sold through direct mail. So the best direct mail names were people who were sold through direct mail. So there was a, it was just they were amazing list. Everybody used them from Money Magazine, to Consumer Reports, to Disabled American Veterans to Brookstone catalogs. that Just everybody used the list. And it put me in a really good position to be like central to the direct marketing list business. And from there, you know, I advanced my career at Boardroom to the marketing side. And so I started, you know, taking what I learned in lists and lists is a great way to go because you’re learning audience, and learning audience is such a great way to learn marketing. So then I advanced my career to be the Marketing Director, I ended up becoming the Executive Vice President of the company. I got an equity position with the founder, Marty Eddleston, which was a wonderful experience. And it was just an incredible ride at Boardroom. just, We work with the best copywriters, the best consultants in direct mail and then online as well. So I was I was exposed, not only the position I was in was so valuable because first as the List Manager, I was exposed to all the mailers and the list brokers and everybody in the direct marketing industry. And then because we were a learning organization, we always went to the experts. I had the privilege of working with the best of the best in copywriting and media buying and everything. So it was just a just a perfect position to have a wonderful 40 year career. When I got to Boardroom, it was probably about a $3 million company. And in the mid 2000s, we got as high as 100 and almost 160 million. We went into all media, we went into TV, we had a big program in infomercials. But we did direct mail, we did email, we did this display advertising on the Internet. We did TV, big time. And so it was a great ride. And then in 2015, Marty had passed away in 2013. I did a big tribute event to him in 2014, the Titans of Direct response. And after that, I thought, you know, it’s time to go on. And Jay Abraham, who wrote the foreword to my book, Overdeliver, said to me, has always said to me, it’s like, if you’ve done it, you have a responsibility to teach it. In fact, he says, you have a moral responsibility to teach it. So I thought it was time, you know, I was, you know, I did it boardroom for 34 years, I said, You know what, I’m gonna go off and teach what I’ve done. Because I didn’t have I didn’t have 34 years, 31 years experience for 34 years, I had 34 years of cumulative experience. And I thought I had a lot to teach and share. And still to learn, especially with online marketing. So I launched Titans Marketing, which is, I call it a direct marketing, education, of educational and coaching company, I run masterminds, I create products, I’ve written two books, I don’t say I’m a consultant, because if you say you’re a consultant, it sounds like you’re unemployed. So I will stick with education and coaching company for direct marketers. And I’m having a blast. It’s, I’m doing I’m actually retired, I’ve retired, I’ve retired from things I don’t like to do, I’ve retired from things I don’t do well, and I have retired from people I don’t want to hang around with anymore. So based on that definition, I’m about 80% retired.

Clint Murphy 06:40
So you’ve done what I say I’m going to do when I retire, which is really continue to work as hard or harder than I ever have, but focused on what I want to do. So it’s less about, my friend keeps telling me I’m not allowed to say retire, that I have to change the word to something like pivot or borrow from Selena or Serena Williams and say, yeah, the next evolution. But I’m with you on that. The book we’re going to be talking about today is Overdeliver: Build a business for a lifetime playing the long game in direct response marketing. And we’re gonna go soup to nuts and cover everything that has to do with that which is exciting. You start at the beginning, which is where I’d love to dive in with you. You say “over-delivery, while not a word is a way of life. When you go above and beyond what you promise to your prospects, customers and partners. you weave integrity, loyalty and growth into the fabric of your life and business.” What does that paragraph right there mean to you? And how does that lay the foundation for the conversation?

Brian Kurtz 07:51
I can’t believe I wrote that, that sounds better than anything I could have written. So I guess that’s a good sign. I’ll start with the bad news about over-delivery. And I think I have it in the book when I talk about, you know, There’s someone who I know very well, who I trust, says I told him I was going to title the book, and he said, you know, don’t title it Overdeliver because over-delivery can be, you know, a terrible thing. Because when you over deliver on like the first time with somebody, and then the next time you need to deliver for them, and you don’t over deliver to the same degree, they’re going to be disappointed. And so it’s always, you know, it’s always unrealized expectations that cause, you know, disappointment. And so I just felt though that, based on that, what you read that I wrote that over delivery is a way of life because how can you not always be like on your best behavior, and your best behavior needs to be something that you’re going above and beyond in every relationship. I also have a lot in the book about a Hundred Zero, which is a great concept. , which is you know, In every relationship you give 100 of your of your side, I say I never use the phrase, I’ll meet you halfway with anybody. Because I think that’s sort of matching, that’s quid pro quo. That’s, you know, I give to you in the same quantity you give to me, and that doesn’t work for me and it doesn’t work. It works for some people, I guess. And taking works for some people. I have a section in the introduction about give and take by Adam Grant. And he talks about, you know, givers, takers and matchers. Everybody is one of those categories. And he says that, you know the the people who are least successful in business, are actually the givers. And he says the most successful in business are also the givers. And so when you think about it that way, it’s how you give and so you can be a chump. He has another chapter in the book Chump or Champ, but you can be a chump and keep giving and giving and giving and get nothing in return from anybody, but my experience has always been based on what you read is that when you give 100-0, overdeliver all the time. Yes, you’ll get burned once in a while from a taker or a matcher, or someone who doesn’t get it. But my experience and again, I always say this, it’s like, it’s only a 40 year experiment. So I don’t know that I can say that it’s actually accurate. But, you know, take it for what it’s worth, it’s only 40 years. But the amount that you put out into the universe, stuff comes back, and it may not come back from the person that you over deliver to, but it comes back from all areas. And that’s been my experience, you know, that you put good over delivery and over good karma, good, positive, giving karma into the world, it’s going to come back, it’s just going to come back. And you know, it takes time, though. There was a guy, I just went to a seminar recently. And it was about 300 people in an auditorium and a kid stands up, he’s like, 20s, I’d say a kid, he’s 26 years old, stands up, and he says, you know, I’m excited to be here with all these entrepreneurs, blah, blah, blah. And he says, You know, I’m just struggling because I have this network. And I know how to connect with people. And I know how to network with people. And I don’t know how to monetize my network. And that’s not what it’s about. It’s not I mean, He was earnest about it, so I’m not going to put him down for it. But it takes time. You know, 26 years old. You know, You might have a network, you might have people that you’ve met, but how long could you have known them? What’s the depth of those relationships. And so even though I’m a direct marketer, I sell a lot online, offline, everything. I always say everything is not a revenue event, but everything is a relationship event. And so overdelivery, and all of that is always about relationships. And in fact, in chapter 10 of Overdeliver, where I talk about playing the long game, I start the chapter with the phrase, I hate the word networking. It’s overused, it implies whoever has the most Facebook friends wins. You know, it just, I don’t say it repulses me. But you know, and I tell the story of why it’s a negative for me, because I was once voted strategic schmoozer, in a direct marketing magazine article when I was under 30 years old. It was like 30 under 30, people to watch in the industry. And they call me Brian Kurtz, strategic schmoozer. And it was like, Man, I don’t want to be that. And so I changed networking, and I call it contributing to connect and contribute, you have to contribute first, in a big way. And again, 100, zero if you can do it. And then what comes back to you is always better. Again, you will get abused once in a while. I mean, you know, there may be five people in 40 years, who have either abused me or I had to write off because they were just supreme takers. But it was, overall, it’s a great way to live, I think. And it’s a great way to deliver both in your life and in business.

Clint Murphy 13:10
Let’s explore that one a little, because I absolutely align with you. And something that I read on that that I loved was when we live the other way, where we think everyone’s out to screw us and I’ve got to get my share, and I’ve got to protect everything I have. You somewhat put a ceiling on what you can achieve in life. Sure, you’re less likely to get screwed that one time, but you have a ceiling on how you can perform whereas he way you and I are suggesting, which really comes down

Brian Kurtz 13:46
I was gonna say that was the word. It’s abundance versus scarcity mindset.

Clint Murphy 13:52
Yeah. So do you want to for listeners, we talk about it a fair bit on a fair bit on the podcast. But for you, what is abundance look like? And why is there no ceiling when you live abundantly?

Brian Kurtz 14:05
Good question so I get a lot from Dan Sullivan. He runs Strategic Coach. He’s the top coach for entrepreneurs in the world. And, you know, I think everything that he teaches as far as entrepreneurship goes, he says this, this is a really good phrase. He says, you know, when one of his entrepreneurs say, they always want to give back, his phrase on that is like, well, you don’t have to give back. Because as an entrepreneur, you never took anything. So all you want to do is give. So entrepreneurs give, they don’t give back. And I think that phrase talks about abundance, that talks about always being in a giving mindset. And you know, he has other phrases which are they sound arrogant, but they’re not. They’re really you know, because Once you get to a certain level of success, and you get to the success by having a giving mindset, but then once you have money and once you have material things and everything you need, you only need. my mentor Marty Eddleston used to say, you know, you can only he can only drive one car, he can only sleep in one bed at night, he can only have three meals a day. And when he had a ton of money, it wasn’t about the money after a while. Money was where to keep score. But it wasn’t anything, he gave away a lot of money, because that was, you know, when you look at people like Buffett and Gates, and now Bezos, you know, when they say they’re going to give away their wealth, whether they will or not, I think they will. And that’s where you go. So that’s a true ultimate abundance mindset, but then Dan Sullivan and says something like, you know, never pay less when you can pay more. So that’s like, you know, taking care of yourself first. So abundance does count for yourself, too. It’s like putting the you know, the oxygen mask on yourself first, before you put it on someone else. But how much is enough, that’s always the phrase you hear when, you know, when you hear about CEO compensation in the, in the millions and millions of dollars. So you know, You gotta be reasonable with what you want, what you need, and then what you can give away, and not just give it away indiscriminately either. Give it away, you know, intelligently. And when I say give it away, you could just be giving away your time. You know, I wrote a blog post, which is based on something that Dan Sullivan says, and something that another good friend of mine in the marketing space talks about Joe Polish, and it’s five ways you get paid. And the fifth is cash. You know, and you can get paid in so many ways, it’s just a great way to look at life. And the other four ways are, you know, you utilize me, that’s a great way. I appreciate you all the time. I refer you.

And the fourth one is going to, I’m blocking out. But I have a blog post, and it’s in, it’s on my blog page. And it’s the five ways you get paid. And the fifth is cash. Cash is I mean, I list cash fifth, and you know what, you do the other four things, cash is going to come? And that’s an abundance mindset as well, you know, just not while you need to make money. I mean, look, I’m not a nonprofit, I look to make money. I don’t I don’t I you know, Everybody should make money make enough to live on make enough to do what you want to do with your life. I don’t slight anybody that. But I think that, you know, an abundance mindset includes, you know, cashing in on things other than cash. And so that’s a big part of the abundance mindset as well.

Clint Murphy 17:41
And so when you gave that example of the young guy standing up on stage, it reminded me of a section of the book where you, early on, you talked about the fact that customers were refund transactions, not relationships, and then you expanded that by saying, always look to build relationships for a lifetime, and deliver huge amounts of value before you ever try to sell something. So is that what the young guy was missing when he wanted to monetize early? And what does that look like? Like let’s say you’re an online contributor, and you’re contributing content and you’re growing your platform? What does that look like? Which I now understand is a list.

Brian Kurtz 18:32
Exactly your phone call it my online MCU. And I know your family when I addressed them, because I was a list guy. Remember, I came out of the list business in direct mail. So to me, not that list is a dirty word. But lists are people too.

Clint Murphy 18:48
So what does that look like before you try to sell something? What’s the timeline? What’s the touches? What’s the value before you say? Hey, I’m going to try to sell a product.

Brian Kurtz 18:57
Great question, too. So when this young kid, the 26 year old stood up, I said maybe I’ll seek him out sometime during the conference and check them out. And it so happened at the next break, he comes up behind me, taps me on the shoulder and says, Brian, you know, I’m a big fan. I read Overdeliver, I loved it. Now of course now that I know he’s trying to monetize his network. I’m a little guarded, but not really because I’m always giving 100 Zero. And I started to ask I said, Do you mind if I ask you a few questions about your point about monetizing your network? And I asked them some key questions. I said, you know, how much do you contribute to your net your network, which is what I talked about contribute to connect. I said something like I asked him a wh ole series of questions. I asked them it’s in the I wrote a blog post about it so I I’m blocking out a little bit but I asked him while Think of it. But the point the point of your question, which is more important, is that. When can you make an ask of somebody? Where it doesn’t feel like the ask is coming from nowhere? That’s kind of a, That’s the parameter for me. So it’s not up, you know, is it is it 15 minutes? No. Is it a day? Is it a week? A month? No. Could it be a year, maybe with certain people that you go deep with over a year. But you know, some people it takes, you know, 5,6, 10 years, before you can really ask them for something and asking them for a favor, for speaking at a conference, for doing something for you, is the same as selling to them.

You know, So I’m taking your question and expanding it a little bit. It’s all about never making an ask from nowhere. And so, you know, and it’s kind of a weird phrase, you know, making an ask, but that’s the way I look at it. And so I asked him this question. I said, you know, what would you ask me for now, you know, I said, like, we just met, you’ve proven that you read my book, although he really didn’t, I asked him some stuff in the book and he was unaware. So, you know, a lot of people say they read your book, and they don’t read it, but that’s okay.

So I said, you know, like, what do you want from me? Like, I didn’t say it like that. I don’t remember how I phrased it. But what can I do for you? And thankfully, he didn’t ask me for anything. He said, I just want you to keep doing what you’re doing. And that’s the answer.

You know, when you’re 26 years old, you meet somebody for the first time, you read their book. And there’s another, But there was another question I asked him, which was this. I said, because when he stood up someone in the audience, he showed somebody in the audience that had taken him on as a mentor, like someone is mentoring him within this group of entrepreneurs. So I said, it sounds like, you know, you’ve got you’ve already got some mentors, I guess my question for you is that that they choose you or did you choose them. Because when your mentor chooses you, it’s so much more powerful. So how does you know because like, I get emails all the time from people and they say, Brian, will you mentor me? It doesn’t work like that. Like, you can’t just ask somebody to mentor you. However, when someone starts mentoring you out of nowhere. Not out of nowhere, because you did something for them. But you need to do it without an expectation of return. It goes back to 100 Zero.

So I had some experiences in my career early on, with two legends of marketing. One was Jean Schwartz, who was one of the great copywriters of all time. He wrote the book Breakthrough Advertising, which I now have the rights to. Great book, amazing book. And we were working with him as a copywriter and I, and but he also had a business of selling books, in direct mail. And because I saw that he was not mailing all the right lists. And I was mailing all the right lists at Boardroom, I basically, you know, out of nowhere just gave him all of our lists that he should mail for his books, with no expectation of return, nothing, except I wanted him to do well, and he was writing for us so we were doing well with him. And what that led to was a lifelong friendship. That he became my mentor and I didn’t have to ask him because he chose me. And it goes, what goes around comes around I in my weekly blog, one of my mentor copywriters, Jim Rutz, passed away, I created a product of all of his swipe files and all of his letters and it’s a great it’s called Read This or Die. It’s a great package that I put together. And when I was putting it together, I sent the, in my blog in the PS, I said to my online family, I said I’ve got all of Jim Rutz’s, and a lot of the people in my online family know who Jim Rutz is. He’s a legendary copywriter. And I said something like, you know, I’m putting I got all of Jim Rutz’s stuff from his sister. I’ve got boxes of all of his mailing pieces that he’s written and all of his letters, everything that he wrote, that was his favorite. And I need help. I don’t know if I’ll be able to ever get to it. But I didn’t ask for help. I just said I’m going to need some help. It’s going to take some time. Three copywriters on my in my online family reached out out of nowhere and said, Brian, I’d love to help with that. I’m a big Jim Rutz fan. I’d love to help with that. They weren’t expecting to get paid for it. They just wanted to help. So don’t you think that those three guys did an amazing job putting it together with me and Jim’s sister, we got the product done. I gave them each a few thousand dollars immediately as soon as it was completed. And those three guys I decided that if they want me to be their mentor, I would be and I have been since that time. So that’s a good example of how what goes around comes around. So Jean Schwartz, he chose me to be as mentee, there was Dick Benson, who I did the same thing with, he was a direct mail consultant or the best of all time, same thing, he chose me. And then I turned it around and chose these three copywriters. If they wanted to be mentored by me, and then they they had faith, they knew stuff that I didn’t know. So I always think you learn from your mentees, you don’t just learn, it’s not just one way street with a mentor to student, but I drank the Kool Aid on that, you know, so I was able to bring it back around. And you know, when your mentor chooses you, as opposed to you choosing your mentor, it’s so much more powerful. So that was one of the questions I asked this guy.

So, you know, if you start and so now going back to your question, how long does it take? When can you start selling to your online family? When can you ask them for stuff? You know, if you have people, I mean, I said to the guy, the 26 year old, I said, you know, if you’ve already had people choose you as your mentor, you know, as opposed to you choosing them, you’re doing something right. You know, so keep doing that, whatever it is. Now, I don’t know, if he went out to find them, and they just liked him or whatever, that’s a one way to do and you can go that way. But if you have people choosing you, well, you might be ready to not to sell to them, but ask them for stuff and stuff like that.

As far as selling in the marketplace, I think that if you set up your online family, to receive sales messages from the outset, you can sell them from the start. But it’s so much better to sell to people that know, like and trust you first. So establishing that and online, it’s so much easier. You know, and direct mail was so much more difficult because you’re paying for postage and printing for every message. And online, you’re, you know, you’re dealing with email. And it’s so inexpensive that you can constantly create, as you said, create value, value value. And if you start getting feedback that oh, thank you for all the value, thank you for what you share. And then you can slip in, you know, if you want more from me, you can buy X, that’s okay. You know, I do that, you know, someone says to me, I love the thing you shared about X, blah blah blah blah blah, and I said, you know, if you want more of that you can join my online Mastermind. It’s affordable, it’s virtual. And sometimes people take me up on it. Now, those are people who have been reading my stuff for a while. But I think if someone seems to be a regular reader of your stuff for a year, and you’re constantly creating value, that’s fine to be able to sell them something, especially if it’s related to what you’re talking about when you’re creating value.

Now, a lot of people end up selling stuff that’s unrelated just as an affiliate, and just to make money. That can be dangerous, that can be dangerous. Yeah, I know of one story of a guy who had a list of about, an online family of about 30. Maybe, if it was 30,000, maybe it was 10, maybe, let’s say he had 10,000 people on his list. And he was it was like a personal improvement kind of thing, like a daily, you know, proverb with a thought for the day and meditation and all that kind of stuff. So then he started selling stuff that was appropriate, he sold yoga programs, which are appropriate, he sold mindfulness retreats, he sold stuff, not his but other people’s. And people appreciate that, you know, you’re selling stuff that is applicable to them. And for some reason, one time he sold a real estate investing course. And the real estate investing, it’s severe. You know, you cringed when I when I said it, but his reason that he had reasoning to do it, not just to make money, he said, well, a lot of my people are unemployed, they’re struggling to make money, it was a way to make money. So he justified it in his mind. But unfortunately for him, it was such a disconnect with his audience, with his family, I think he ended up losing a third of his audience to unsubscribes. So you can you can lose it in a heartbeat as well.

There are some people that just sell, sell, sell, and they’re not getting unsubscribes as many because the people are used to them selling. Now when you create value, after you’ve been selling, selling selling, it’s hard to get the value in between the sales messages, because the emails are coming from the same place. So you know, everybody has a different mix. Everybody has to be congruent with, you know who they are in the marketplace, how they want to position themselves. I position myself PPas value value value, I sell only in my PS’s of my blog, and I only sell educational products. That’s my deal. I’m not saying I’m doing it right. I’m doing it what’s congruent for me, and I don’t take affiliate commissions. What I do is if someone has a product that I that I decided to sell, that’s appropriate for my audience, I asked them that I want them, that you’re going to pay me the affiliate commission, and I’m going to give the affiliate commission to my online family as a discount or they’re going to sell the product less the affiliate commission. So basically, my audience gets it for 40% or 50% discount, right? And that, then they give me the best price. And that makes me feel really good. But I’m careful about that just because that’s my brand. That’s who I am. But I’m not saying I’m doing it right, I’m doing it, what’s good for me.

Clint Murphy 30:20
So you’re more doing the, if I’m the next step for me, Brian is I’ll be doing a newsletter, launching my newsletter in January, and intend for it to be value driven. And then periodically, you’re saying at the bottom of the newsletter, you have a PS, if you enjoyed what you’re reading above, I have a course and it’s about personal finance. I have a course on personal finance launching next month, if you want more join us. But it’s not, I’m not just bombarding them with email, corporate finance course, personal finance course, personal branding, it’s, hey, here’s all about growth. Here’s what I’m just throwing it out. PS teaching this course if you want to join.

Brian Kurtz 31:07
Yeah. And I try to do the PS’s and try to relate them if I’m selling something to something in the blog. So I wrote a blog recently about it was it was about language and using the right words for the right audience. And one of the copywriters who I follow, his theories on that, he’s a guy by the name of Bill Jamie. I have a swipe file with him, he’s gone now. But the PS, I just sold the Bill Jamie collection as a writer who follows this theory, and that’s where I got the theory from. However, the downside of that, I don’t, I don’t sell a lot. I mean, I sell often, but I don’t sell a lot because my audience. but I’m more comfortable with my audience knowing when they open my email on Sunday morning, that the bulk of the email is going to be content, it’s going to be a story about my career. And so, and that’s why I get, you know, probably sometimes I get over 50%, open rate, open rates are overrated, it’s the engagement rate. If I get a 50%, open rate, and I get a lot of engagement from the audience, and then you have to respond to all the emails. That’s how I develop my online family. It’s painful, sometimes when I get 30 or 40 responses, but I do tend to I don’t respond to them immediately. But I try to respond to all of them at some point in the next week or two.

And that’s important, because everything doesn’t have to be an automated responder, and you know, slipping in upper, actually, my favorite is when I send a personal email to somebody responding to my blog, and then they respond back I go, this isn’t you, is it, Brian? Like they don’t believe that I responded personally. They thought it was just a great auto respond that sounded personal? And I said, no, and I have to respond again, no, it’s really me. Now, I could have done all of that on autoresponder too, but I don’t, you know, it’s just amazing that when you’re online, and you started online, as a marketer, you get so used to everything being auto responder, everything to be automated, and just, you know, everything is a funnel, but within the funnel, you can put a personal email, especially when you see something that comes back in an engagement. That seems like it’s, it’s more than just someone saying, Hi, or someone asking for advice.

You know, there’s people, I mean, I have a bunch of stories about this, I wrote a blog about it recently, where I’ve had emails come to me, and it’s like, if I wasn’t paying attention to the emails from my online family. , after I send out, I know, My blog post goes out to about 15,000 people, you know, every Sunday morning, and then I send out to the unopened on the following Friday with a different subject line. So sometimes I’ll have like, 60% open rate on the two emails. And, you know, I could get a lot of responses and I read them for a couple reasons.

One, I want to respond, but two, the language that they use, like if I, you can tell if someone’s a player in the business, that’s important to know, because then you really can sell them. Like they’re talking to you like a buddy. Like Brian, I’m in this with you. I’m in the direct marketing business like you, and you know, whether they are or not, they’re talking like they are, which is fine. And I’ll go back to them and say, Wow, you seem like you know, someone who’s got some experience if you want to join my Mastermind, I’d love to have you. You’d make an incredible contribution, which I believe. I’m selling them.

And a lot of times I get people to you know, I had one and One of the best examples was a guy who wrote something that showed in his response to my to my email, my blog, that he was a player, because he used shorthand for an event that I had hosted. It was the Titans of Direct Response. I mentioned it was in 2014. And he said, you think you’ll ever do a Titans event again, just that gave me a clue that he’s not saying an event like you did in 2014. He said a Titans event, he shortened it. So I use that as a clue that maybe he was a player, I said, you seem to know about the Titans event, were you there. Got into an email correspondence with him, I found out that he was a guy who has a company online that follows display advertising, and tracks display advertising for clients. And it led to a $20,000 membership to my high end Mastermind, after I told them about it. So just responding to an email based on the language that they use, when they were engaging with me, led to a $20,000 sale. And I wasn’t really selling, I was engaging.

And then I had one, a guy from Brazil, young copywriter, under 30 years old, sent me an email and said, I’m doing this book. And I’m assembling all of the ads, the actual ads that Jean Schwartz mentions in Breakthrough Advertising. And Breakthrough Advertising was originally written in 1966. So these are actual ads, like print ads, from the 1950s, 60s, maybe the early 70s. And he said I’m accumulating all the ads, I’m doing a book, it’s an anniversary book, would you like to be involved? So I’m thinking to myself, well, you know, he’s going to do this book, he’s going to sell it , he’s going to, but I didn’t, again, it was like I wasn’t, I was going at it, you know, half full, not half empty. And I said, Wow, you assembled all those ads. You know, maybe I can use them. And then we got into a discussion. And it led to a new book that I published, which is the Breakthrough Advertising Mastery book. And it’s actually just being shipped today. And it’s 500 pages. Half of it is like exercises from the book. And the second half of the book are all the ads. He just supplied all those ads to me. 300 ads, I printed them in color. So I have this 500 page hardcover book, that’s going to be so I’m selling it as a as an upsell to Breakthrough Advertising. And it came out of an email of this young copywriter from Brazil, telling me about, you know, that he assembled all the ads.

So I guess the lesson is, read your goddamn emails. You know, and so you will be able to sell through that. Now, it’s more one at a time. It’s more like Johnny Appleseeding, then doing mass, you know, launches, which I do also, I don’t do mass launches, but I do launches to the whole list. But I look I’m not, it’s because I’m not I’m okay, I’m leaving money on the table, whatever that means. And I’m okay with it. I’m doing it the way I want to do it. And that means more to me.

Clint Murphy 37:28
Yeah, and it’s playing the long game, which we’re gonna get into later when we talk about people. And something that you talked about in there that I’d love to expand on, is when you talk about that book that’s coming out, and that it’s a supplement to Breakthrough Advertising. And it has all the ads, what you’re really looking at is a swipe file, if you will. And so one of the things that brings up from the book is the concept “learn the rules like a pro, so you can break them like an artist”, which is at the start of the chapter on the importance of original source. And you have five core principles you talk about for original source material. Can you tell our listeners, what do you mean by original source? And what are a couple of core principles that you think any young direct marketer or a copywriter needs to really understand, to get their game on the level? Like if I come to you and say my goal is to be the best copywriter I can ever be. And you’ve got the five principles. What are three, you’re gonna say, well, you need to be doing.

Brian Kurtz 39:19
I define it. It’s funny, though. I have like on Amazon, I have like 100. And, I don’t know, 50 reviews. I have like two or three one star reviews. And one of the one star reviews just torched me on the chapter on original source, because he said I kept repeating the same thing over and over again, which I did, and I probably could have made that chapter a little shorter. But it was important because I had to establish, I mean, original sources, chapter two. Chapter Three is how paying postage made me a better marketer, which is about my roots in direct mail. And then I got into creative offer lists, customer service and fulfillment, continuity, all the other issues in direct marketing and original sources like where babies come from, the fundamentals. And you need to and that’s why I use that quote from Pablo Picasso, you know, “learn the rules like a pro, so you can break them like an artist”. And with swipe files, it’s like I say stealing is a felony, stealing SMART is an art. It’s another guy. I think I made that up. But maybe not. I don’t take credit for anything because I don’t feel like I’ve invented anything. I just bring stuff from the past and bring it forward to people who haven’t heard it before. And we all do that. So some of the principles of original source is you know, that marketing is about psychology. It’s all about, you know, and so when you read a book, like, Influenced by Robert Cialdini, he didn’t write it for copywriters. It’s a book that most copywriters put at the top of the list of books that they that you need to read. Breakthrough Advertising is written by a copywriter, Jean Schwartz. But it’s a book that is more about human behavior than it is about copy or marketing. Now, there is stuff about copy and marketing in it. But it’s really a book about human behavior, and psychology, how brain how the human brain works, and no matter what technology is being put to use today, and it’s the best time to be a marketer in the history of the world, because of technology. The humans haven’t changed. You know, I think I wrote an afterword for the new edition of Breakthrough Advertising. And I think I started the afterword with something like, you know, human behavior hasn’t changed since Jean wrote this book in 1966. In fact, that hasn’t changed since 1066. You know, it’s just greed and what you know, giving people what they want, not what they need, you know, people coming for information, staying for the inspiration, all those principles, go back to the human brain and goes way back. So that’s a big factor in original source. Original Source is that there’s nothing wrong with shortcuts. Taking a shortcut based on something that was invented before, is fantastic, not just with swipe files, looking at old ads and seeing how they apply today. But I think, you know, when people say that, like all the things that are new today, like, you know, there’s Click Funnels from Russell Brunson there’s product launch formula from Jeff Walker, there’s the Ask method from Ryan Lovak. They invented those. But if you asked any one of them, where did they learn it from? How did they come up with it? They’ll say it was from, you know, core direct marketing principles that were invented back way back. And they put it on steroids with technology. You know, I mean, the Ask method is about serving your audience to get people into buckets. It’s basically advanced list segmentation, using the technology that we have available. So the original source was core list segmentation and modeling of names. And now you can, you know, put it on a fast track with surveys online product launch formula, Jeff Walker, who’s a good friend of mine who invented it said when he realized it was all about direct marketing, and that online, you could give away your best stuff, because you always have more best stuff. That was the key to inventing Product Launch Formula. But it was based on the fact that you couldn’t indirect mail giveaway your best stuff all the time, because it was costing you a lot more money with postage or printing to just give it away all the time. Whereas online, you should always give away your best stuff upfront for free, because you have to have confidence that you’re always going to have more best stuff. Another principle is, I mentioned swipe files are your secret weapon.

Clint Murphy 43:53
So for our audience, who doesn’t know what a swipe file is? What is a swipe file? And how does it differ? Let’s say in direct marketing in adverts versus like, if you’re on Twitter, what is your swipe file?

Brian Kurtz 44:12
Your swipe file, could be like, I have a bunch of them. So in the in the on the site where I sell Overdeliver my book Overdeliverbook.com, I have tons of bonuses on that site that are really good. And one of them is a swipe file. It’s 400 pages of ads going back to 1900. Now people are gonna say, Well, why do I want to look at an ad from 1927 by Claude Hopkins, who’s a great copywriter from back then. And the reason why a swipe file like that is valuable is to get your juices flowing, first of all, and you know that if it’s a swipe file, you want to have stuff that worked, because it’s the audience that chooses what’s best not the writer, you know, when you write something that you love, and you take it out to the marketplace, and no one responds, then why bother, right? But if it worked, no matter why it worked, you want to put those you want to assemble those and analyze them why it might have worked, what button was it pushing? What was the headline doing? What was the body copy doing? What was the subheads doing? What were the sidebars doing, what were the, you know, the bullet points doing in the ad? So I and what would the coupon do if it was an old ad, because the coupon is the same thing as having, you know, a coupon in 1927 is a website, you know, a URL in 2022. So it’s so relatable, it’s copy, it’s going after people’s wants and needs and desires. So that’s why a swipe file going back to 1900 is great. Then the best copywriters, the ones who’ve had the most success, looking at a body of work from a particular copywriter, that you either want to emulate, who you happen to like it’s like, it’s like, why would you read an author over and over again? You know, all Why does everybody read any book that James Patterson writes, are Why does anybody read, you know, all the works of Charles Dickens, because they relate to it, they feel one with it. The difference with a swipe file is that you are one with it. And then without stealing, without plagiarizing, you will get ideas from the writers you admire most from the stuff that you know worked. because they’re only sharing, and we only share and but Actually, in the Jim Rutz product, I put ads in there, that I and promotions that he wrote that I knew didn’t work. And we did a little critique on because Jim was a writer that basically took huge risks. Like I always say he was either a zero, or he indexed the zero, meaning the control the control package, which is the package, that’s the one that’s the winner, he either indexed like a 23 against the control. That’s like 20% of what he needed to do, or he indexed to 300, which is three times what he needed to do. But the gap between his losers and his winners was so wide, that it was so interesting to analyze them. So even this amazing copywriter, one of the best of all time, would take huge risks. Now a lot of best copywriters don’t take those huge risks, they know exactly the formula to get a winner every time even a small winner. So those are worth looking at too. So there’s so many things you can learn about a writer, about a period too. So you have to take so the ads that we assembled for Breakthrough Advertising Mastery, which is the ones from the copywriter in Brazil, that we put in this book. You know, there are ads in there for like girdles and cigarettes and, you know, stuff that, you know, that is products that don’t even exist anymore. But it’s interesting to see how something was sold that was unknown. And that’s one of the issues in Breakthrough Advertising that Jean explores, Jean Schwartz explores, he talks about you have to write to the level of awareness of your audience. And you have to write to the level of sophistication of your audience. So you don’t write a one size. And it’s so applicable today. Even more applicable to email, when you have a list that you can put into different segments. And there’s some people who are aware of your product and your brand and you and you don’t have to sell the same way as someone who was unaware. And then there’s everything in between. Same with sophistication, if someone is a sophisticated buyer or prospect for your product, their product aware, product sophisticated, you don’t have to give all the features and benefits, you just have to say what your solution is. So you have to, they might be product aware, but they’re not solution aware, or the opposite. They might be that They know there’s a solution but they don’t know what it is, they don’t know what the product is. So you have to spend more time and you have to know that about your audience. And there are ways to get there through surveying, through asking them, through you know what I call the Kennedy calls, marketing by walking around, you know, you have to walk around. And there’s so much it’s so much easier to walk around today. There’s this thing called the internet, there’s this thing called the Google, you know, you can go into like focus, you can go into forums on Google and be a fly on the wall. And look at what people are talking about in your market use and the language that they’re using when they do in chat or even if it’s a live forum, and you take notes and you use that language when you sell to them. So there’s so much that you can get from a swipe file. And the only thing that Jean Jean actually hated copycat ads. So while he was showing ads, and we assembled 300 of them. He only mentions them in the book. We got 300. The actual ads that he’s talking about. He had the headline but now we have the whole ad. And but he said, you know, just to copy an ad, that’s just lazy. And you know, you see it online, you know, there was a, there were ads, there were ads or you see it all the time, like the dirty little secret, you know, and now is an ad, you know, that was something that was done, you know, back in the 70s and 80s with, you know, supplements and stuff. And, you know, they work for a short time, but they’re gonna fizzle out really quickly. And one of the last things I’ll say about swipe files and all of that, is that, you know, there’s a lot going on right now in the copywriting world about AI, artificial intelligence to write for you. And some of the tools are amazing. And one of the best copywriters alive today, David Deutsch, who was a copywriter for me at Boardroom, still writing, still teaching copywriters, coaching. And he was at my Titans Mastermind, and he did a presentation on how he’s using AI. And it’s interesting because we were talking about AI in terms of intellectual property of the copywriter and being ripped off and all of that. So David, he floored me because he’s kind of old school copywriter, but he’s always on top of what’s going on. And he’s using AI to help him with the blank page, meaning that he would use it for like a first draft, then you would improve upon it. And then he would get his final copy and use that. So even if someone is going to rip you off, and people are ripping people off more than ever before, because there is this thing called the Google, there is this thing called the internet. So they are going to rip him off. But the thing is, he’s one step ahead, he’s got the AI, he’s got his improvements, which are all him. And then by the time they rip off his AI version, and his improvement, he’s on to the next because he knows he can continue to produce better copy. And it’s the idea of, I phrased it, it’s like staying one step ahead of the cops, right, or one step ahead of the thieves, basically not the cops. So it’s interesting that you know, and it’s always this theory that, you know, it’s not that you’re always going to have more best stuff as a as a, as a, as a marketer, as a copywriter, you have to have confidence that you know, you can put your best stuff out there. If you get ripped off, you can you can you can litigate it if you want I don’t recommend that. I recommend just doing something better and screwing the you know, pirates and and the thieves and I have a takedown service you know, that I use and they take stuff down online for me if people are ripping off Breakthrough Advertising, ripping off stuff from Overdeliver whatever, but I don’t I don’t I don’t concern myself with it. Because it’s like I’m gonna go on to do more best stuff later on. And I could spend all my time and in lawsuits and and with lawyers and spend all my any money I do make. I’ll spend it on lawyers. No way. No way. I’m not going to do it. But you have to protect your trademarks, you have to protect your brand and all that. But there’s a there’s a time to do it and there’s a time not to do it. So that’s a lot. I just went into a lot of things about swipe files, but they are just so valuable. And you know, there are copyrighters, one of the best copywriters I work with at Boardroom, Eric Betswell doesn’t really have a swipe file. He’s a great copywriter. So it’s not a must. But I’d say for anybody new to copywriting, you have to study, you have to study what’s worked. Because again, you have to learn the rules like a pro, so you can break them like an artist. And the only way to do that is to see what the pros have done, and what’s worked in the past. And then you can break out of a mold maybe. And that’s how new formats are created. There have been new formats all the time. Whether it’s the video sales letter, that’s PowerPoint style, or a video sales letter, that’s B roll with with PowerPoint, going all the way back to direct mail, number 10 envelopes with 12 Page letters to Maga logs, you know, eight, eight and a half by 11 are eight and a half by 14, 16 to 32 page, things that look like tabloids but they’re actually promotions. 64 page book logs that look like a Reader’s Digest issue, but they’re actually promotion. How do you get there? You get there by researching? I mean, I think that, you know, I think I think that product launch formula from Jeff Walker is kind of like an extension of direct mail magalog or bookalog, because the direct mail magalog and bookalog gave away some of the steak, they always say you know, sell the sizzle and the promotion so you give away the steak when they buy it. That was a direct mail thing because, you know, you couldn’t afford to give away the steak, you know upfront. But I would say that in the magalog or bookalog formats when you’re doing 64 pages or 32 pages. You got to give away some steak, you can’t just do 32 pages of promotion after promotion. So you give away some of the answers. You say that the six tricks to hang out with a mugger in a self service elevator, you give him three of them. And then you say for the other three, go to page such and such and the product that you’re selling, that’s the way you do it. All of that was borrowed, whether Jeff knew it or not in Product Launch Formula. In the first video, when you’re launching something online, you give away some of that stuff. And you give away more of it, you give away all six, maybe, but you don’t give because you have other stuff to sell. after they, you know, so again, it’s it’s, um, there’s so much that you get But again, swipe files for the sake of stealing. No, no, that’s not what they’re for.

Clint Murphy 55:37
And so what’s this idea that a lot of people talk about when you’re learning copy and you have that swipe file that you sit down and in use some of the good adverts or content or copy and you write it out by hand? Why are we doing that?

Brian Kurtz 55:57
There’s mixed feelings about that there are a couple of copywriters that say it’s a waste of time. But the some of the best copywriters of all time, have used that technique. So I’ll go with them. You know, Gary Halbert, Parris Lampropolus. So what it is, is a couple of things. One is that if you’re a beginning copywriter, the idea of writing out on a piece of paper and not right not typing it, writing, because there also is there’s a lot of studies that say that, you know, your thumb and index finger are attached to your brain a lot different than when you’re at a keyboard. And I believe it, I’ve read some studies about it. So the idea is you have to handwrite it. So your handwriting great mailing package or sales letter. So let’s say that there’s a famous letter, the two men, the Wall Street Journal letter, which is a letter it’s a, it’s a sales letter that talks about, you know, two guys who go to the same university graduate, and one does this, and one does that, and it shows so, but you took the Wall Street Journa, two men letter, and just wrote it out on legal paper, the theory is that you’re basically writing a control package, you’re writing a winner, and you’ll get a feel for what it might be like to write it, that’s one reason. Another reason is to get in your head the words, the structure. , you want it, You don’t want to write it, You want to write it exactly the way it’s written so you want to separate the paragraphs, when there’s like a one line paragraph, write it out, because there are styles that you want to kind of, maybe put in your own writing style that you know have worked. You know, I you know, you never want to write really long paragraphs, for instance, and generally, in long copy, you want to do fewer, fewer words is always better than more words per paragraph, per line, per slide on a video sales letter. So it’s put a slide on anywhere, I mean, PowerPoint, you know, there’s a guy who’s in the speaker Hall of Fame, Joe Weldon, he was teaching me some speaking tips. And he said, you know, by the way, PowerPoint slides are free. So the idea was that, you know, you don’t have to put you don’t have to, you know, take a slide and use it all up with words. You should have like no more than like three words on a slide, or maybe just a picture to remind you what you want to say, as opposed to a bunch of words. So, you know, there’s so many ways by writing something out that you can get lessons from. There was a guy, a young copywriter, this was funny, because I think I wrote about Gary Halbert. You know, writing out Gary Halbert was one of the first that said, you know, write out, you know, the tick, take a series of great ads, and write them out on on, you know, handwrite them on paper. It’ll take you far kind of thing. And so I got in my mailbox, one day, like my PO box, I go in, and there’s this big thick 9 by 12 envelope, but it was really thick. And I opened it up. It wasn’t from somebody I knew, the corner card was not from anybody I knew, I opened it up. And it was from somebody in my online family who read something that I wrote about handwriting a package. And he had bought Breakthrough Advertising from me. And when people buy breakthrough advertising from me, I have a letter on the top of the book that says read the first three chapters multiple times before you go on to the rest of the book. The rest of the book is very valuable, too. But the first three chapters are mind blowing. That’s where they talk he talks about levels of sophistication. He talks about mass desire, he talks about levels of awareness. It’s just an amazing three chapters, and you got to read it a bunch of times to really let it sink in. And that’s why we did the worksheets in the book with the ads, we have worksheets in Breakthrough Advertising Mastery. And we also do a bootcamp for two weeks on the book. So we really are studying Breakthrough Advertising, and so what he did was he had read. So we read that, that that that letter on the front of the book. He also read something in my blog about writing out your mailing pieces. He wrote out the first three chapters of Breakthrough Advertising on the legal paper. That was what was in the envelope and my PO box. Now was he brown nosing me in some way to get me to choose him to sit so I would choose him as a mentee. Maybe, I mean, but it was pretty industrious. I mean, he couldn’t have it was not typed, he actually hand wrote the first three chapters of Breakthrough Advertising. And, you know, I thought about it, I said, God, I told him to read it three or four times, so writing it out, and borrowing those two techniques was pretty industrious of him. So you know, I wrote to him and told him that he wasn’t asking me or anything, which was good. If he ever pops up again, and he says, I was the guy six years ago, who wrote, you know, he wrote the first few chapters to you, I’ll remember him, I’ll remember him because I’m remembering him now. And, you know, make yourself memorable, you know, and, but also do something good for yourself. And he did both of those things. And so I think he probably understood the first three chapters more than someone who didn’t write them out.

Clint Murphy 1:01:19
And so Brian, if we pivot when we’re thinking about the different components that go into our offer, what is the 41-39-20 rule? And how should we be using that?

Brian Kurtz 1:01:33
I mean, so that the original, there is a there is a rule out there in direct marketing. I think I read it, I don’t know, it’s been co opted by different marketers and different people. But there was something that said that the success of any direct marketing campaign depends 40% on the list, 40% on your offer, and 20% on everything else, and everything else, meaning the creative, the copy, the, you know, the messaging. And so I thought about that, and you know, whether it’s, you know, whether it’s, you know, 31, it’s not so much the numbers, it’s the concept of 40-40i20. And the concept says that, you know, if, basically, the creative is the least important, until it’s not, that’s the way I interpret that. And so what I mean by that, is that I made it the 41-39-20 rule, because I believe that the list, the audience, the people that you need to target is the most important, slightly more important than the offer, I get arguments from people who think the offers the most important, they’re equal in the 40-40-20 rule. But I think that if you have the perfect audience, if you’ve segmented the perfect audience for whatever your offer is, and whatever your messaging is, and your copy, you’ll get some sales like you can have a perfect list, perfect audience, mediocre offer, mediocre creative, you’ll make some money, you’ll get some orders, The opposite is not true. If you have an audience that’s so foreign, for what you’re selling, the offer could be the best offer you’ve ever put together with world class copy, you’ll get zero orders every time. So that’s why so then I said, Okay, if offer an offer and list are considered equal, let’s make the list a little bit more so we get the list dialed in, then we get the media dialed in, we get the audience dialed in, then we work on the offer. And then once those two are ready, it’s not that the creative which is 20% versus 40, or 40, or 39, or 41, it’s not half as important, then it becomes the most important because that’s where you put your direct marketing program on steroids. I use that term too much, but put it take it to direct marketing Nirvana, because that is saying that, and I proven it over my career, where the biggest lifts in response, were not due to changing the list segmentation, or changing the offer. I do get lifts by getting better lists. Assuming you get the best list the first time, the best offer and the best creative and then you improve on them. The incremental improvements, you get incremental improvements by improving your list segmentation, you get incremental improvements by improving your offer, you get monumental, monumental breakthroughs, with new creative approaches, new from a new copywriter from a new way of thinking about everything. So while it’s half as important while you’re working on the list and the offer, it’s the most important once you have those dialed in for the most part, and it’s basically that’s a three legged stool of marketing. And it’s an, I’ve actually learned that there’s like two other, it’s actually more a five legged stool, but that those three are most important. And the other two legs, one of them I talk about in Overdeliver. One of them is customer service and fulfillment. But that’s on the back end, you know, once you place an order, once you have a new order or prospect, or renewal or anything like that, customer service and fulfillment are super important. And then the fifth leg would be math, and not marketing math. Marketing math is, you know, I did $5 million on a launch. Well, you also spent, you know, $5,800,000 on on everything else. So it’s math, it’s statistically significant math. I got, I have an ROI on my marketing, they’re not, those are all very important that the consumer, I’ve only added those recently as the fourth and fifth leg, and they’re critically important. But the three legged stool is how you get started in marketing. And you have to get that you have to get the list market media, perfect, or as close to perfect, get. And by the way, when you’re working, if you have a world class copywriter, when you have the list solid, the copywriter is now going to get if you signed the copywriter at that point, they will probably if they’re really good, they’ll help you with the offer. Because they if they’re, they’re gonna, So it’s like the offer and the messaging now becomes 60%. You know, 20 and 40, or 39. So it’s 59%, which is more important than the 41. So they’re away, I don’t want to get caught up in the numbers. But the idea of 41-39-20 hit me when I was writing Overdeliver. And it’s a great way to explain how, kind of how marketing works at a level that everybody can understand. And so you don’t go out and say I’ve got this great creative, or I have this great offer. , without knowing if there’s, and this goes back to Breakthrough Advertising. Jean Schwartz talks about in chapter one, about mass desire. You know, he says that it’s not the copywriters job or the marketers job to create desire, the desire is already in the marketplace, you just have to find it, and then farm it and then cultivate it. But if the copywriter It’s arrogant to think that the marketer or copywriter creates the desire. And starting at that premise, it’s clear that the audience and the list is the most important. And Jean, interestingly, I have a bunch of stories about him. But the most interesting is that he used to write copy for us. And he didn’t, we never paid him for copy. I told you before that he had his own little publishing company, Instant Improvement, he published these small health books that were kind of insignificant for the most part. They were, they were weird. They were like the Tao of Sexology, and How to rub your stomach away by Chinese medicine. Really interesting stuff, but kind of off the wall. And he realized that the best lists for him were what our list was one of the best lists. Remember I said everybody uses the border lists. So what he would do is he’d write a package for us for one of our products. And in exchange for that we give him 750,000 names from our database of you know, 2 or 3 million names segmented perfectly for him. And if you do the math, not marketing math, but real ROI math, instead of I could have paid him $100,000 for the package. He made so much more than that on the 750,000 names, because he’s mailing the best names for his products, then they buy them and he sells them all his other books. So he’s got this, this constant flow of revenue and income from mailing our names, which was worth so much more to him, so that Jean Schwartz, who’s a world class copywriter, one of the best of all time knew that it was about the list too.

Clint Murphy 1:09:06
Mm hmm. And so you’ve got the list down and then the second part when we’re looking at our offer, you talk about three things that I’d love to tackle with you. “Going a mile deep versus a mile wide, ensuring our niche fits with our superpower” and then this concept of repurposing or purchasing assets to offer versus always trying to create new assets.

Brian Kurtz 1:09:29
So let’s do one at a time. So the first is right, so that’s true for everything in marketing, copywriting. You know, the best copywriters and the best marketers do so much research before they develop an offer, before a copywriter puts one word on paper. The best copywriting teams from the best direct marketers in the world, Agora for instance, they hire copywriters in house and they are trained to go to do research for like nine months to learn the Agora way of research before they even write. So a mile deep versus a mile wide means that you need to research everything about them. And again, it starts with the list and the market. So you got to research the marketplace, you got to go walk around in the marketplace, is there a need for it? Is there a desire for it? Find the people, and go as narrow as you can. Because if you start narrow, this is number two about niche. If you start narrow, and go wide, it’s always easier. You know, going wide and too narrow is just God, it’s so much more painful. It’s so much You’re going to have way more failures than successes. I’ll use an example that I always use in this discussion, which is I was at a Mastermind once and the guy was on a hot seat talking about his new product that he was developing. And he was going to launch a product that was for men who are going through a midlife crisis. So I’m thinking to myself, all right, I raised my hand and I say, okay, men in the midlife crisis. Don’t take this the wrong way but like, what, what qualifies you to teach that? What qualifies you to develop a product like that? And he said, Well, I was. And he obviously I hadn’t done a lot of research on this, but he just thought he was ready to do it. He was going to be the guy for men and midlife crises. Kind of wide, right? And so he he said, what qualifies you? And he said, Well, you know, I was I was working and my job started going, going south, I got fired. I started drinking, my wife left me, I almost committed suicide. My kids don’t talk to me, didn’t talk to me for years, blah, blah, blah. But I came out the other side bigger and better. I said, alright, so your story is what you’re going to work with here. And I just asked one simple question. I said, What were you doing when you went when you had your midlife crisis? And he said I was a lawyer. I said, well, why don’t you just start with lawyers and midlife crises, instead of trying to be everything to everybody, start your story in. I mean, this is an obvious example. So you have to like find out like, because then you’re going to relate much more, you’re going to be able to tell a story that is going to be relatable to a specific audience. And if you were a bankruptcy attorney, start with bankruptcy attorneys and go out to lawyers and then go out to or you know, more people, or to accountants or whatever. So that that’s, that’s a severe example of why you need to go niche. why you need to, And even with people who are established, and they’re looking to do a course or they’re looking to do a product, I always tell them like, don’t start with everybody start with the people. Like if you’re going to do something new within your your field, who’s paid you the biggest checks for what you’ve done. And if there’s like, you know, something similar with those people, maybe they’re in different industries, but they have something in common. You have to like, it’s Jay Abraham, who wrote the foreword to my book. And he’s a great marketing mind. And he always says and his book is my favorite of his books is something called, it’s titled, How to Get Everything You Can Out of All You’ve Got. And that’s what you need to do. When you’re looking at creating offers, you’ve got to get, you’ve got to start with assessing your assets that you already have. What do you do for a living? Who gives you the biggest checks? What list do you own? What you know, What can you do to create something for what you already have within your field? I mean, if you have a Facebook followers or a list, that’s, that’s an asset, if you have an email list, that’s an asset, if you have a postal list, that’s an asset, if you have content, that’s an asset, so you have to assess all of your assets. And then from there, kind of go a mile deep, what’s the niche and develop your your, your your offer.

And then the final piece just lost my train of thought but what was the third piece it was… So a mile deep wide, niche was superpower, right? And then repurpose. Right so,

Then you have to make a decision is always try to question whether you make or buy. And so, you know, everybody wants to author their own product, they want to create their own course they don’t want to borrow from other people. Meanwhile, if they create their own course, they’re always borrowing from other people just just saying. So, you know, I believe that there are situations, especially on the back end of buying beats making for a lot of reasons. And when I say buying, yeah, you could buy another company that has a product or service or content that weaves into what you’re already doing that you could put your imprimatur on it, you can put your name on it, you can own it, you can white label it, they can just give it to you a product or a service. Or you can just work as an affiliate for it. You know, when I talked about affiliates before, they’re not selling it to you, but they’re going to offer it to you to offer to your audience. And that might be just as good than creating something new yourself. And also, if it works, then you can create something similar to that, if it’s so valuable to your audience, then you might want to create it and not get 50% of the revenue and get more than 50% of the revenue. So the idea of the make or buy decision, though, is critical. Also, when you’re piloting something, like if you’re piloting a new something, the idea of doing an affiliate, which is someone else’s product that is going to be similar to what you’re thinking about, is a great way to market tests and do R&D. So you don’t have to do all the work that’s going to take to make something from scratch. I mean, it’s true with software, it’s true with courses, it’s true with books, it’s true with you know, services. Like if you’re a chiropractor, and you’re looking for a you want to create some products for like massage products, you can buy one, you know, or white label one, see if it works to your audience. And then if you want to outsource it and source the product yourself, once it works, that’s a much better way to go about it, then source it initially. And basically, you know, have to manufacture it or something like that, as opposed to buy it. So the make or buy decision does come after you’ve done the research and, you know, researching your niche and going a mile deep. But it’s an important decision to make along the way. And I do believe that if you have a very strong core product, looking at all of the upsells, and cross sells and back ends for that product, or that product, you know, suite, I think you should always look and see what’s in the marketplace already, that you can either buy, you can white label, or you can work on an affiliate with. And you know, a lot of times a lot of affiliate deals that you do are products that are not widely known. So it almost works like a new product to your list. So, you know, don’t underestimate that piece of it as well.

Clint Murphy 1:17:35
And when you think about repurposing, what part of like a step up step down model. So for example, if I have a live classroom on one of these websites, Maven, do I take that content, turn it into a video and say, hey, if you want to come to the live classroom, it’s 750 bucks. But if you want to just have the video course of all the recording and printout of the materials, it’s…

Brian Kurtz 1:18:06
Yeah, I mean, there’s a lot of different I think it depends on the content itself. I think there are situations where there are like these live events that are so valuable, that there’s one in particular that I remember that was $5,000. And it’s so valuable that everybody who buys it, the replays and all that. It’s $5,000 no questions asked. So, but that’s the exception. Now, I think that we have these boot camps for Breakthrough Advertising. And it’s a two week boot camp, we go through, it’s like seven calls, we go through the book, we do exercises as homework, we do hot seats, we do, you know, q&a, ask us anything kind of stuff. And it’s $197. But there were so a couple of people missed the first week and they wanted to come in the second week. But because everything is recorded and everything can be done on their own, theoretically, I didn’t discount it. So they missed the first week, they came the second week, but they had to pay $197 Just for the second week, but they got all the materials from the course. I also offered them the next course that we do, they can have that not pay again. So there’s a lot of ways to work that in. But then you have like these big live events that now that we’re back to live events post pandemic. And there was one recently that was like, I don’t know, maybe it was like 2 or $3,000 to go live. And then the replays of the event were like, you know, maybe half price or something. Because it was just recordings of a stage event. And that’s like, they were basically, they don’t want to make it cheap, but they want their understanding that if you came live there was a completely different experience. And if you’re getting them on either digitally or on discs or on a USB, it’s not as valuable per se. So that’s one way to look at that. I also think that there have been hybrid events where during the pandemic. And that told us a little bit about how people will pay for an event, some hybrids, or some first of all, there was some live events that went completely on Zoom. And they, most of the events there, they reduced the price a little bit, they got a lot more people. And they ended up at the end of the day making more sales with less cost, because they, you know, they saved on the hotel, and food and beverage and all that. Then on Mastermind events, and I’ve done this, I’ve had hybrid, so I have a zoom option, and a live option. And during the transition period, late 2021. and into early 2022, I offered, it was the same price. I mean, you know, they it was interactive, it wasn’t like a live stream. So the Zoom was interactive, the people on Zoom could contribute, they could do a hot seat, they could some of the people were some of the speakers were on Zoom. So it was not a reduction in price. Now I’m using zoom, now that it’s all live, I still have the zoom option. And now because it’s post the zoom, only era and post the hybrid era, now I will do a little discount for zoom, as opposed to live, but there’s so many ways to look at that. And, but I do think you know, most times when you do a live event, and then sell replays, the replays are usually less expensive. Now, if you’re doing a summit online, so you’re doing like two weeks of constant presentations over a two week period in a category. So they have like a JV Summit. So they have, you know, 30 presentations over two weeks, and you have to be on live to get it, but it’s free if you go on live, but no one’s going to be on live for two weeks for 30 different speakers. So they continually offer all of the speakers of the summit, and they charge you know, a decent price for that. And that’s where they make their initial money on, on the content. Because they just provide so much content that you can’t be there. I mean, some people don’t buy the recordings, and they just go on when they can. But that’s another model where, you know, they come on for the for like six live events, and then they’re offered to buy all 30 presentations. And that’s where they make a lot of money there too. And then there’s a lot of back end to that too, you know, the individuals who spoke and sell products to the list and all that. So it’s a big moneymaker. But the actual Summit is usually free, which is a nice model. And so they do give away a lot of content for free. And again, that’s a perfect example of giving away your best stuff for free. It’s overwhelm, so you can’t even absorb it all. And then you know, then you have to have more best stuff that’s in reserve to sell. So there’s a lot of different models, if I answer the question because there’s so many models of live and and and recorded and all that.

Clint Murphy 1:23:33
Yeah, it gives different different options for the listener and if we go through to the third stool, third leg of the stool being the copy, you say there’s seven characteristics that make a great copywriter. What are three or four that our audience should zone in on as they seek to become good copywriters.

Brian Kurtz 1:23:55
Google will teach people to buy my book then, I won’t give them all of them. So and actually when I when I did when I did this list, basically what I did was I thought about all and I’ve had the privilege of working with all of the best copywriters who have been alive over the last 50 years. Just because as I said Boardroom only hired the best, we just you know, we’re amazing at not leaving the copy to amateurs. We just went to the best of the best all the time. We paid top dollar for them. And so I kind of looked at them one day, and I said what characteristics are in play for all of the best copywriters I’ve ever worked with.

And I came up with these seven characteristics. I’ll give you three of them that are the most important. I think one of them is insatiable curiosity. They have to have, and that goes into research that goes back to research, that goes back to you know they have to have they just Have to have so much curiosity and they either have to learn it, but most people can’t learn the curiosity that the best copywriters have. But, and I have a lot of examples in the book about what makes a great curious copywriter, I won’t go into that right now.

And then another one is passion. And that goes back to the niche. So narrow to wide, you know, when I do this as a, I’ve done this as a speech at many conferences. And the visual I have for this as a as a funnel, but the funnel is has the has the narrow end at the top and the wide end at the bottom, because you have to go narrow to wide, which I mentioned earlier. And so a copywriter who knows everything about options, can write in options. And eventually he can write about equities, he can write about, but they or she, you know, they really have to be expert in one thing first, and then they branch out as opposed to trying to be all things to all people, which I said before is the same thing when you’re creating an offer as a marketer. So it’s very similar in that respect, passion for niche is very important.

And the third is, is super important and not as obvious. And it’s knowledge of direct marketing principles. So if you’re a copywriter, you need to be familiar, you know, Dan Kennedy, one of the great marketers of all time says, you know, as a copywriter, you don’t want to write for food, you know, you don’t want to just write and just get paid for it. You want to be a valuable partner to your client, you want to be a trusted adviser to your client. And to do that, you really need some basic direct marketing knowledge. And I would say to start with, it’s the 41-39-20 rule. It’s the idea of lifetime value, how you calculate that, how you look at the first order as not the end, and that the first order is to get a second order. And how do you look at the second order when you’re going out for the first order? And how do you look at the fifth, sixth and seventh order.

And so lifetime value of a customer, a third aspect of understanding direct marketing principles is RFM (recency, frequency and monetary value), you need to understand that, you know, and I’ll briefly mention it in case, nobody, somebody doesn’t know what it is, it’s outlined in my book, and a lot of people say that I didn’t invent it, obviously. But a lot of people say that the way I explain it was, they got it after they read it in my book, which I’m very thankful for, because I really wanted to make it so important, such an important concept. And what RFM says is that someone who responds more recently is worth more than someone who responds less recently, someone who responds more frequently is worth more than someone who responds less frequently, and someone who spends more money with you is worth someone who spends less money with you. And it’s putting those three things together. When you’re looking at your online family, your offline family. Your list, lists are people too, but they all have an RFM score they all and the ones who have the highest RFM score are the ones you want to mail the most, the ones you want to mail with the most personal emails and letters and videos, and the ones with the lowest RFM score, you might be able to forget about when you can’t sell anymore to them.

But that’s the two extremes. those are like three things, I’ll give a fourth just for the hell of it. Because it’s important too and that’s feedback loops. You know, you need feedback loops. Every copy, you can’t write copy by committee. But a copywriter goes into their cave, they write the copy, but you must have people around you that you can run the copy against. And it’s got to be people at your level or above. You know, if you’re the smartest copywriter in the room, you’re in the wrong room. If you’re the smartest marketer in the room, you’re in the wrong room. If you’re smart, I have a mug here for my Titans Accelerator Mastermind, which is all on, it’s on Zoom, and the quote on here from Confucius. He didn’t say this. But he said if you’re the smartest person in the room, you’re in the wrong room. If you’re the smartest accelerator on the Zoom screen, you’re on the wrong screen. So it’s basically you know, you’ve got to have feedback loops that you can trust. That’s why, you know, I spend, you know, $150,000 a year on outside masterminds. So I can be the, not the dumbest person in the room, but not the smartest person in the room. I’m never the smartest person in the room of the rooms I enter. I never go into a room needing anything that’s not asking from, you don’t make an ask from nowhere, but you want to be always a lifelong learner. And so that encompasses not assuming that you write copy or you come up with a product, and then you’re ready to nail it. Because or, you know, send it out, because you thought it was great. And you know, you didn’t get the right feedback. So feedback loops is another one of those seven keys to what makes a good copywriter and what makes a good marketer.

Clint Murphy 1:30:17
And so when when when you take it a step further, and you start to look at the art and science of copy, you throw some good questions at us. And three that jumped out at me, one of them was, what’s not here that should be? Why should I listen to you? And what’s in it for me if I buy your product? And so those seem to be three things we should always be thinking when we’re writing our copy. Do you want to tackle those Brian?

Brian Kurtz 1:30:44
Those are always critical. So the first is, right, what’s comes from Jean Schwartz, when I used to give him a product or a book or a newsletter, I gave him a book, I give him a health book to write a promotion for. And the first question he always asked me is what’s not in the book? Like a weird question, right? It’s a 450-500 page book of health tips. And, you know, all kinds of great health information. And he’s asking me before he even opens the book, what’s not in the book. And the reason is that his insatiable curiosity for one, but he also knows he’s going to be able to write a successful promotion from this book, because it has so much, but he wants me to go back to the editors of the book, and find out what’s on the cutting room floor that they rejected from the book, because it was either too controversial, or too edgy or something. And he wants to see those pieces. Now he may not include them, because they may not be a human and he may not be able to back them up with copy to support them. But he might ask them also to go back and research it some more because they’ll make the best headlines, they’ll make the best information.

Parris Lampropoulos, great copywriter did the same thing with a newsletter for a natural health newsletter. And I asked him to do a promotion for it. And he said, it’s just too boring, Brian, there’s nothing edgy in here. So we decided he would go talk to the doctor who was the guru for the newsletter. And when they talked, the Guru said, yeah, the editors at Boardroom are like putting, they were rejecting all my best stuff. So Parris, went to the editors. And he said, Give me that stuff that you rejected. And he sent them back to go, because that was the edgy stuff that was, you know, was not just, you know, take fish oil, it was like the really good stuff in natural health. Some of it they couldn’t back up. But some of them they did find a study when they dug further. They, and those became the leads in his letter. And then he decided to do the promotion for me once he had that information. So that’s what’s about what’s not here, as opposed to what’s here.

The second you said was second is well, so that’s the know, like and trust. So that’s why you have to establish yourself, either as an authority, as someone who is worth listening to. You know, it’s hard, you know, you can’t just do it with just, you know, a list of accomplishments, you have to show don’t tell. So you do it through story. You know, I guess what I’ve done with my blog since 2014, is I told stories of the legend of what I did at Boardroom many times, and also what I’ve done in Titans Marketing. I’ve also talked about my failures, you know, and I think that’s important too. You know, Why should you trust me? Because I’m willing to admit that I’ve made mistakes. Why should you like me? Because I’m humble. And I don’t just brag. And when I do brag, I mentioned that I’m bragging because it’s not bragging if you did it. And you know, that’s a quote from Dizzy Dean or from it’s quite, it’s attributed to a bunch of people. But John Wayne, few people, but it’s not bragging if you did it. So I always preface my quote, unquote, brags with, you know, a story that is just facts of what I did. And you know, that’s how you that’s how you get people to listen to you. And it was the same question. I asked that guy who said he had a product for men in a midlife crisis. I basically asked him, Why should we listen to you on that topic?

I mean, people who’ve read my blog for six or seven years, they know they can trust me on direct marketing. I’m not always going to be right but I’m always going to be relevant, based on 40 years experience. So that’s, that’s why you should listen to me, or why anybody should listen to you. And then what’s in it for me is just a classic, you know, direct marketing staple that, you know, you always have to think about the reader, the prospect, the potential buyer in mind, you always have to keep them in mind. You know, Whenever you can use you versus I, now, when you’re telling stories. It’s hard. And I’ve been accused in my blog of using “I” too much. But you know, I’m telling stories about my career, but I always try to figure out a way to flip it to you, like, I’ll say I i I and then I’ll say, but you can do this too. And you need to look at such and such, and you might have some experience, you know, so I try to get, you know, it has to be something that intrigues them that something that they that they want. And again, I’m not creating desire, the desire is already there. I assume it’s already there, because I’ve done some research. And now how do I work that desire in and it’s got to be something in it for them. Otherwise, they’re going to be clicking off very quickly. So yeah, those are those are three critical, critical things that everybody in marketing needs to keep in mind when you’re talking to an audience.

Clint Murphy 1:36:26
When we look at that audience, one of the things that I understand more and more when I research this, and get involved and scares me a little with Elon Musk. And what’s happening at Twitter, which is where I have most of my list, Brian, is the danger of being on one channel, being one of the aspects. And then the second one, the danger of renting our real estate versus owning it. So a lot of people look to say, Well, hey, if you have these social media presences, you need to take that from their real estate to your real estate being whether that’s your newsletter, your email list, what does that look like for you? And what do you talk to people about the importance of being on multiple channels? And owing their own real estate.

Brian Kurtz 1:37:21
It’s super important. So first of all, the most dangerous number in businesses one, you know, and that goes for one medium. I know, a company that had 100% of their supplement business on Amazon and Amazon shut them down. And they were out of business. $30 million business. So that’s the extreme. But yeah, Facebook owns the platform, they can kick you off anytime they want. Instagram, TikTok, YouTube, Google, and Twitter, you know, so but you want to be diversified, just like your portfolio, right? So you diversify. Now, the idea of owning your platform, You know, you never really own it, you own your content, I guess. But even if you mean I, my goal is I mean, email is as close as you’ll get to owning your own platform. But even there, you don’t want to be on one email service provider. Because they could, you know, they won’t, they will usually won’t shut you down but they might, they might shut you down temporarily, if you get a lot of spam complaints or bounces or something like that. But email is a lot, a lot safer than any of those social media platforms. But you should be on more than one ESP email service provider, as well, I’m on two, I probably should be on three. And I might move to a third as well. Not and you know, I’ve got, I’ve got my list in different places so if I get shut down, I can move it over and all of that. So yeah, I always have to have backups. And I do believe that, you know, from a guy from direct mail, where I grew up, I think email is still the killer app in marketing.

You know, I’m not ashamed to say it. Some people think it’s old school. But man, you know, And video is good too, mean owning a video owning your videos, but then you know, then you have to put them on either Vimeo or, or Wistia or whatever, or YouTube. And then if it’s on YouTube, you’ll own less of it. Unpaid, right. But if you’re paying Wistia, or you’re paying I think it’s called Wistia or Vimeo, you’re paying them by contract so they’re not going to shut you down. They’re going to give you ways to get back up.

Same with an email service provider. So when you’re paying to play, that makes a big difference too. So being diversified. Paying to play makes a big difference in terms of owning your real estate. And you know, I was on a, I was on a live cast with an online marketing Samurai, she’s fantastic. And she brought on like, I don’t know, 30 different people in marketing for like 10 minutes each. And she asked every one of us one question. And the question was, what do you use social media for in your marketing? And I didn’t know what I was going to say. Because I didn’t know the question. That was the question. And I said something like, I guess I use social media to get people to move over to my email list. Become a member of my online family. And then I romance them. That was my answer. And so that means that I’m in all social media platforms. Meaning I advertise on Google, I advertise on Facebook, I advertise on Tik Tok, I advertise, I don’t, I don’t do Instagram, YouTube, AdWords, Google. And, you know, my goal is to always get people onto my email list, always. And then I make them part of my online family. And then I romance them, romance them through value content. I mean, it’s just a, that’s my funnel. And I hate using the word funnel, because funnel is an overused phrase, in the marketing world.

I was doing funnels in 1985, a funnel for me was ell a book, then sell a subscription on the same topic to the book buyer. That’s a funnel, you know, but now it’s so elaborate. And some of them work great, you know, they have a book funnel, you buy a book for shipping and handling only, and you get into the book funnel, and all of that, that’s fine, they do a lot of selling on that, and they make a lot of money. But everything is not a funnel. And that goes back to everything is not an auto responder. You know, The personal touch counts. And so, you know, mixing things up, that’s like a multi channel to, you know, you think about it going from an auto responder to a personal email back to an auto responder. you know, Also going from online to offline, you know, is a section in my book on O to O to O. Couple of paragraphs on the idea of online to offline to online, toggling between both spheres, meeting the customer where they want to be met. I mean, those are just, you know, crucial things to do. So the importance of multi channel is so important. And also, you know, to mix it up. And the idea of actually bringing offline, whether it’s TV, radio, direct mail, print ads, package inserts, all old media’s supposedly, old media is new again.

It’s all you know, it’s all I don’t know, it’s interesting. It’s, you know, I get a lot of requests, Oh, what’s this? What’s this thing called direct mail? You know, and I respond favorably to that. Now, I do think direct mail is hard to prospect on because the costs are so high. But as a back end to any online business, it’s it’s fantastic.

Clint Murphy 1:43:25
The, Where I’d love to finish on the book is something that you love is can you tell our listeners how we can contribute to connect, what the compound interest on relationship capital means? And then what are some prescriptions that you have for our listeners on how they can build that relationship capital?

Brian Kurtz 1:43:49
So the second one was relationship capital, what was the first

Clint Murphy 1:43:59
contribute to connect compound interest on relationship capital, and then how to

Brian Kurtz 1:44:04
So contribute to connect is I don’t want to be so repetitive but it’s basically, it’s always think to contribute first, never walk in a room and say, I need anything I always walk into a room and say, what can I contribute to this room? How can I move the room or the zoom screen forward? If someone is need of help, raise my hand if if I can help them. Don’t help them if you’re going to steer them down a bad road, but you know, always contribute first, and with no expectation of return. And then that will lead to returns on your relationship capital. And relationship capital is a term I learned from Jay Abraham, which was, you know, basically, it’s the most important account you own. And I use the analogy to a bank account, that it’s compound interest. And that’s the thing I said earlier about it’s not one years experience for 40 years, it’s 40 years cumulative experience. So you contribute in, you know, 1993 to x person and in 1998, that person had said something to another person to another person. And that person, that third person comes back to you in 1998 with an opportunity or something, that is a payback that you don’t even know about. Or you might learn about it. And those are fantastic. Like, I get stuff, like, people who’ve been on my list for six years, and then something hits them and they finally buy something from me.

And they let me know, you know, people are, are slow, you know, they’re slow to, you know, hit the hit the buy button, maybe, but that’s okay.

You know, I’m patient, you know, so the relationship capital always has to be built upon and built upon.

And, you know, the, and then when you want to take, you want to take withdrawals from it. That’s the whole idea of art isn’t an appropriate ask of anybody in your relationship capital to ask for that.

Have you developed enough interest, both literally and figuratively? You know, them and you and you and them to, you know, ask for a favor, ask for something. I tend not to be someone who asks for help that often. But when I do, you know, be and I’ve done this for so long. I usually get a yes, it’s rare. I remember the no’s actually from people who I expect it to get a yes from. I don’t I don’t shun them. I don’t I don’t get mad at them. I don’t hold a grudge. I remember that they didn’t say yes so I won’t ask them again. And that just is less pain for me. But I’m not looking for yes, all the time. And I get Yes, more times than not. So that’s the value of relationship capital.

And as far as, you know, advice, there’s a lot of stuff in chapter 10 to develop the relationship capital, I have a section on Christmas cards in July, which is basically, you know, being appreciative of your network, and I hate the word network. So being appreciative of your online and offline family on a regular basis. And not just during holidays, you can do it during holidays, I don’t slide anybody for doing that. But when the moon hits you do it, you know, I have some examples of that in the book.

And, you know, always look to contribute when you’re out and you’re walking around in the marketplace. I have some prescriptions for how you can do dinners, intentional dinners, both large and small. And the idea is, you know, the small dinners are great. I mean, you’re at a conference, and you look around, and you look for five people to have dinner with. You choose them, you have to pay for dinner though. And there’s a prescription for that, you know, you need a round table, not a square table, you need kind of an agenda of sorts. So you have a round table with one discussion around the table, you need to be in a quiet restaurant without a band. And you can run a dinner that becomes much more than a dinner. You got to eat anyway, you know, make it intentional.

And I talk a lot about the intentionality of the big dinners that Marty and I did at Boardroom and I outlined those as well. And there’s some other stuff. You know, There’s one is a story in there about, you know, whenever you’re out in the marketplace, someone is always watching and listening to you so always be the same. I hate when someone says like, wow, they’re up on someone speaking on stage. wow, they’re so authentic. It’s like, why would they be authentic? They’re or they’re not authentic when they come off stage, or the opposite. Like he so different on stage, when he comes off stage, he’s really authentic. Well, they should be the same person all the time. Unless you’re, you know, an actor or a comedian or you have an act, that’s fine. But, you know, the idea of authenticity is kind of like, I mean, you should always be that way. And so, you know, that’s really important. And it’s paid dividends for me, because people will tell me, like they saw me at a conference doing such and such. I don’t remember being at that conference. I don’t remember exactly that I did that. But it makes sense that I would do that because it’s what I do. And that’s really gratifying that I was just, I was being authentic because I am authentic, you know, that type of thing. So there’s a lot more in chapter 10. That has a lot more about all of that.

Clint Murphy 1:49:50
Yeah it’s beautiful. And Brian at this point, we went pretty wide and deep on the book. Is there anything that we missed that you want to make sure we get across to the listener.

Brian Kurtz 1:50:00
You know, there’s so much more in the book, and I hope people will buy it. I’m not, you know, just so you know, I’m not, I want them to buy it not because I’m going to make money because actually, I still haven’t earned out my advance on the book. So it’s clear, I’m not making any money on a book sale. But the beauty of buying the book, not directly on Amazon, but going to Overdeliverbook.com is that you go there, you hit the Amazon button, or you hit the Barnes and Noble button or whatever, wherever you want to buy the book, you go buy the book, on another window, you come back to the overdeliverbook.com site, you put in your name and order number from Amazon or Barnes and Noble and you get like the bonuses are worth 1000s of dollars. In fact, some of them are priceless. There are two books, they’re from two of my direct mail mentors, Gordon Grossman, and Dick Benson, full PDFs of their books, which are totally out of print, you can’t get them anywhere, except, you know, on eBay or something. And, you know, that’s just two of 11 bonuses. That swipe file going back to 1900 is on there. There’s 19 keynote speeches that Jay Abraham has given on the site, you access them.

It’s just a wonderful, I mean, I’m so proud of that site, even more than the book, because it honors my mentors and honors, all the people that I love the people I look up to. There’s a swipe file from Dan Kennedy, there’s Gary Bencivenga, who’s probably the best living copywriter, all the Bencivenga bullets was a newsletter he wrote, and I put them all in one PDF for everybody. So you know, you know, the books $25 $27, you go to overdeliverbook.com, what you get for buying the book is so valuable that I can’t help but sell it, and I’m not making any money on it.

The other thing is, if they if you don’t want to buy the book, and want to get my Sunday blog, and you go to my site, a lot of free content, they can just go to Briankurtz.net. And they can sign up, there’s another hour and a half interview that they can get. I don’t know if they’re sick of me at this point. But it’s actually the three biggest successes of my career with Perry Marshall, who’s a great marketer, and he interviewed me and so you get that when you sign up for my list, my online family. And so, you know, either overdeliverbook.com But yeah, I, um, I think I’ve, I’ve talked enough about the book and myself and what I’ve been able to share. This was a long interview, but you’ve asked good questions, and I appreciate you. It’s, it’s been a wonderful experience.

Clint Murphy 1:52:51
Yeah, thank you, Brian. I appreciate you being here. And I’ll give you back the gift of time. We went long today and I appreciated the conversation and learning from you. Thank you very much for joining us on the pursuit of learning, make sure to hit the subscribe button and head over to our website, the pursuitoflearning.com where you will find our show notes, transcripts and more. If you like what you see, sign up for our mailing list. Until next time, your host in learning Clint Murphy