Clint Murphy  00:03

Welcome to the pursuit of learning podcast. I’m your host, Clint Murphy. My goal is for each of us to grow personally, professionally, and financially, one conversation at a time. To do that, we will have conversations with subject matter experts across a variety of modalities. My job as your host, will be to dig out those golden nuggets of wisdom that will facilitate our growth. Join me on this pursuit. Today’s guest is Renee Guilbault, a veteran food industry leader, and we’re talking about her book, a taste of opportunity. Let’s get right into the show. Good morning, Renee, welcome to the podcast where I’d love to start with you. As for our listeners, who don’t know anything about you and haven’t read your book A Taste of Opportunity yet? Can you tell them a little bit about yourself before we dive into it?

Renee Guilbault  01:15

Sure. Well, I’ve had a long, almost 30 year career in the food world. I grew up in California, and I have kind of lived and worked in many, many cities and countries. And I’m the principal of food consulting company called the Essayer Food Consulting, which focuses on working with organizations trying to put food out into the world in good ways for you know, their environmental impacts, nutritional standards, and especially their workforce, engagement tactics. And so part of the reason why we’re talking today is because one of the projects that I’ve been working on for the past couple of years is a retention project that’s wrapped around our beautiful industry in the food world and shining a light on the side of the food world that people don’t often get a chance to see.

Clint Murphy  02:08

And what I loved about the book was you can take the ideas, and you can actually apply them to any industry. So when I ask you these questions, and we work through it and have the conversation, what people will realize is what works in one industry really works in all industries, there’s a lot of cross commonality. And with that, let’s dive in. And where we’ll start with is with a note that you made, which is “the food world is a place where formal education doesn’t matter nearly as much as how you show up to do your job every day. Grit required.  A college degree or a personal connection to the C suite, not so much.” Can you unpack that for us and share how you join the industry and climb the ranks? When you decided to drop out of high school and start into the industry?

Renee Guilbault  02:55

Yeah, absolutely. I think you know, that’s one of the greatest gifts of the food world is that anybody from any walk of life can earn their way into a leadership role. And, you know, it’s kind of an extraordinary thing to me, because we haven’t really captured that in a really effective way to communicate the wild opportunities that exist in food. You know, there’s a lot of conversation around dead end jobs and low wages and no opportunities. That’s actually not nearly the whole story. I mean, there’s definitely truth to that. But they’re also stepping stones and building blocks. And what I refer to in the book is kind of like these crummy jobs, but crummy with a B, because they’re leaving that trail of breadcrumbs that lead you to develop skills and learn how to deal with people and learn how to handle financial management, something that I know is very close to your heart, and you know, kind of life skills that everybody can use. And they’re totally transferable. And so you touched on this earlier, the food world is a gateway, right? If it’s a place where you unlock passion, and you realize that you want to live in that space, and that’s awesome. But every single skill and tool you learn and relationship you create in the food world can also serve you in other career paths and other industries, and other professional capacities. So it’s really hard to find a downside to an industry that doesn’t require an entry point of a bachelor’s degree or a certification. It just requires a willingness to do hard work, a curiosity to learn, and a desire to put your own dreams and your own ambitions first, and I would love to talk to you more about that. And I’m sure we will across this podcast but that’s, you know, kind of the secret sauce for me.

Clint Murphy  04:35

Yeah, we’re gonna dive into a lot of that and one of the things you talk about in the food industry and any industry, this one works as well, again, is when we strive to fix things that bother us, that’s when the progress begins. What did that look like for you early in your career? And what should that look like for our young listeners?

Renee Guilbault  04:55

Gosh, you know, that is so many things, right? I think about like my brokenness as a young person trying to navigate an adult world, not having, you know, the right skills and tools and capacity, or self worth or confidence, and not really even recognizing that or knowing that, right, like it’s very much in the land of you don’t know what you don’t even know. And I think that, you know, as we kind of grow up and discover ourselves and what life is like and have more experiences and mature in so many ways, you know, that’s really the root behind all of that when we strive to fix the things that bother us, either about ourselves or about the world. And that’s where progress begins and I think that I say this all the time, imperfection is where the magic happens. That’s where growth is, you know, in discovery. And so I’m always looking for imperfection, because there’s opportunity there And so when you rewind the clock, you’re talking about being young, brokenness, this you dropped out of high school, to pursue work in the food industry, Not necessarily. I dropped out of high school to pursue life. I serendipitously found myself in the food world. But you know, I think like many people, I didn’t have a compass. You know, I wanted to work, I wanted to pay my bills, I wanted to party. Those were kind of my priorities, you know, in those early years. But what was really fascinating about that, it became a situation of okay, well, what’s next, then, you know, and that was something that I hadn’t really thought about when I was when I was leaving home and moving into the world of full full time work. And so as soon as that started bubbling up, that’s where that pivot came in, of, what do I care about? What am I passionate about? What do I love doing? Can I make that a job? You know, that kind of stuff.

Clint Murphy  06:51

And so when you started doing that, you made a pretty big decision to go back to school, in France to Le Cordon Bleu to become an actual chef. So what was that decision? And how did that change your career and life trajectory? And why did you make the decision at that time,

Renee Guilbault  07:12

You know, I had spent several years working in an ingredient commodities brokerage firm and learning the mass manufacturing side of, you know, the food world. And it just became really clear to me that I wanted to learn how to cook and do that professionally, that all of the joyful moments of my life were wrapped around food experiences with families and friends. And, you know, creating those experiences and cooking and inviting people to the table. And I thought, I would love to do that for a career, I think I would be really good at it. And if I suck at it, that’s cool. At least I will say that I tried. And I could go back to doing this other thing that I know that I already do really well. So I felt maybe this false sense of security that I could recapture the career I had already built. And I didn’t go to culinary school until I was 24, almost 25 years old, or just turned 25 years old. So it was really, you know, quite the pivot after spending, you know, six, seven years in a different direction. And I’m so grateful that I had mentors at the time, who helped me, kind of steer me in that direction and supported me. And then that opened up a whole new landscape of food values and French food culture and understanding real true techniques. And it was a long, winding road to get there. You know, there were a lot of starts and restarts and twists and turns and wrong moves and everything, just even to get to culinary school.

Clint Murphy  08:34

The I love the idea of long, winding road and you already talked earlier about crummy jobs. So this next question I have for you wil make a ton of sense.  And I even rewind back, one of my first jobs baling hay. And then after I bailed hay, I was working at McDonald’s. And then at some point I was a food server. So I hear you with these crummy jobs. And then now as a CFO, I even see this in finance, everybody always wants to start at the top. They want to be the chef or they want to be the CFO, but nobody wants to do the work, the pain and the frustration of the crummy jobs on the way up. Which is why I found your statement about learning from the crummy when you said “there’s the frustration and pain of right now. And then there’s the wisdom and gratitude of the long road. Exercise your resilience muscle to move your mind out of the hard moments and into the longer view.” What does that look like for you? And what should our listeners really be picking up? When they think, well, how is this McDonald’s job or how is this job as a server at Pret-a-Manger, like how is this going to serve me 10 years from now?

Renee Guilbault  09:48

Yeah. Well, I mean, it goes back to what we talked about earlier about, you know, gathering those life skills and creating relationships, which is something we didn’t talk about, but this is something that’s so fundamental and core to career success and joy right? At work and throughout your life, the power of relationships is critical. And a lot of those deep relationships are formed in those early career years, where you’re kind of like, going through the trenches with your mates. I think that when you’re walking through the fire, what feels like the fire, in your younger career years, where you’re really learning the ropes, and you’re taking some hard knocks, and some difficult personalities and lessons and maybe things you don’t agree with, or things you would choose to do differently, but you kind of feel forced to do it a certain way, it can be really, you know, demoralizing and hard to kind of trudge through that. But when you look at it, you know, from the other side of it, you see how valuable and rich those learnings are, and how they really carry you through the rest of your career, especially because of the strength of the relationships that you’ve built. And so I think, you know, what I’m trying to share in that, and what a lot of the interviews throughout the books have also shared are just that it’s so valuable. And it’s so worth it. Even the hard stuff, the worst stuff that you’ve had to experience in the jobs, it becomes so meaningful in your life, because it informs the kind of leader you’re going to be, the kind of processes and systems you’re going to put in place to help your team succeed. It’s going to help you inform your values, your personal values, it’s going to figure out, you know, where is your values line when people cross it, and you’re going to become much more confident about that, you know. There’s so many, we could talk about that alone, for like an hour, but it’s, it’s so valuable. And I think we have to do such a better job of communicating, that devalue the people who are walking through it, because it’s hard. And if you don’t have people supporting you that can say, oh, yeah, that happened to me. And unfortunately, that’s normal. But you know what, this is going to serve you well later. So, you know, keep your dreams as the primary focus and use that as the fuel to keep moving through it. You know, we’ll all be stronger for that. And I think also much more joyful and happy.

Clint Murphy  12:01

And so as you talk about that, you’ve mentioned relationships a few times, and the more you climb the ladder in the industry, the more it becomes important, who you know, and what relationships you have with them. What are some of the things that the young listeners should be thinking about as they start to build these relationships in their career. And you also mentioned having those people you can talk to, which brings up the idea you raise of having a personal board of directors. So I know, that’s two separate questions, but maybe we can tackle dive into each of those.

Renee Guilbault  12:35

Yeah, let’s dive into each of those remind me of the PBOD stuff. If I forget, I think the first part of that is that you know, the relationships that you form with your colleagues is critical to the success of your career, because those colleagues are going to move into leadership roles. And some of them will even move before you into those leadership roles. So if you keep your agreements and you’re easy to work with, and you know, you are committed to a level of quality and showing up, they’re gonna remember that when they’re the boss, and you’re gonna get tapped on the shoulder. So I think oftentimes, we don’t think about that when we see our peers at the table with us. And, you know, it’s so easy to kind of like, fall into these patterns of camaraderie, especially based on like complaining camaraderie. But those colleagues are going to become future bosses. And so it’s really good to keep that in mind from the get go and show them your stuff, show them what you got.

Clint Murphy  13:31

And so when you talk about some of those challenging situations, there can often be two ways that are happening. One, it’s about them. It’s not even about us. And so how do people learn that to not make it personal to let it go.  And the second one? When do we have to recognize that it’s not the always the situation around us? We’re the problem. 

Renee Guilbault  13:56

Oh, yeah, I call that sometimes the asshole isn’t who you think it is.

Clint Murphy  14:01

Exactly, exactly.

Renee Guilbault  14:04

So I think this is where your PBOD actually comes into play hugely, certainly did in my experience. And a lot of the leaders that I’ve spoken to so PBOD is the acronym for Personal Board Of Directors. And what that really means are kind of adults, older champions and mentors who’ve gone through it before, whether they’ve walked in your shoes because they’re in the same industry or they’ve walked out outside of your industry. They’ve got leadership experience, management experience, people experience, the lessons and the the tales that we all have everybody has. And that’s what we don’t hear enough about as we’re walking through it. And it’s so easy to take it personally and really there are many times in my career where I look back and I think about the times that I cried in front of bosses or not in front of bosses, you know, at home, to my mentors to my PBOD, you know, really like earth shatteringly hard moments. And they were really formative. And the best, the best, like brilliant outcomes that I got from those were knowing that I wasn’t alone, that somebody cared and that they’d had that experience also. And it really helped me to know, it didn’t mean that it was normalized, right? Because it’s not cool. And it’s not okay. But a lot of things that happen happen. But we also live in a world where it is the reality. And so you can be upset about the fact that it’s happening at all, as you should. But if you let that become, you know, the thing that stops you from achieving, then you have ownership too, right? And so that was something that was really helpful, that I learned from my PBOD to say, you know, Renee, what do you want to achieve, like this thing is, you’re right, this is ridiculous, and this is wrong. But if you quit every job you have, you’re never going to earn yourself into a place of authority where you can make the changes you care about. So you got to stick with it, you know, you got to stay, and just fight the good fight for yourself, but for your values and for the change that you want to be. And I really, I appreciated that. And that drove me that became the fuel I needed in a lot of circumstances where it would have been so much easier to wipe my hands up and be like, You know what? Nope, not for me. Thank you very much. I’m out. And also, please forgive me, I have a terrible cold. I’m sure you can hear it. I sound like Leonard Cohen. But I didn’t. I just wanted to acknowledge that this is not how I normally sound.

Clint Murphy  16:27

No, it’s great. You sound great. Don’t worry. So when you think about that, how does someone go about forming that personal board? How do I find the people that are going to be my mentors? How do I find the people that I can reach out to when I’m dealing with that shitty job or that manager who is behaving inappropriately, and I’m trying to think about what I should be doing? 

Renee Guilbault  16:52

Yeah, you know, they’re everywhere. And I think it’s about you know, personality and fit and a natural coming together of shared interest in and caring about each other and common goals, right. So there, wherever there are adults, whether it’s, you know, managers who have taken an interest in you who’ve given time and space to help you, you know, sort through tricky things, those are the folks you want to keep close to you. If it’s friends of your of your parents, if you’re young, and you’re still having like exposure to family life and those kinds of things. It’s, it’s really seeing, you know, who feels like a right culture fit for you, and who’s pushing you to be the best of what you can be at every given moment. And who’s also telling you the truth and telling you when you’re wrong and telling you when you’re doing something, you know, that’s contrary to your goals, or, you know, yes, you suck at this or, but you can change and improve. And here’s how.  You know, you need truth tellers. Because, you know, feedback is critical for growth. And oftentimes, the things we don’t want to hear are the things that we most need to hear, right. So I think you can find those kinds of I call them career angels, lurking everywhere. It’s just about opening your eyes, and then making the effort to invest in caring those relationships through many, many years.

Clint Murphy  18:09

So earlier, when you talked about the idea of ownership and control, something that jumped out at me was when you talked about the fact that no one cares as much about our own career as we do, which means you know, it can be depressing for some people, but it can also be liberating, because that means we’re the ones that are in control of our future. So when young people hear that and get a little nervous, like, wait, no one’s gonna give me a playbook and tell me what to do step by step. What does that look like for them?

Renee Guilbault  18:45

Well, I mean, I’m a big believer in owning your career, and personal responsibility for yourself and for achievements, as far as you know, turning your dreams into, to action and into realities. And I think one of the biggest lessons I learned was that despite the fact that we’re kind of taught throughout schooling that you know, if you get this high mark, you’re gonna get this accolade or you’re gonna get this accommodation, and all you have to do is perform well, and somebody is going to recognize that and they’re going to push you forward. That’s not actually the case. You have to advocate for yourself and you have to use your goals and your dreams as that North Star to keep moving forward, especially in the hard moments. So I think that that’s really the root of what this is. Nobody comes with like a career a perfect job that’s a linear career path on a silver platter and says, here you go, you are just the lucky one. You know, and that’s why I included all of the videos across the the book of actual industry leaders standing shoulder to shoulder to share their personal career journeys, because when you watch them all together, and you hear people talking about their own career pathways and the most senior leadership roles, I mean, there are $5 billion level leaders sharing their personal career journeys and leadership insights in this book, and nobody had a perfect plan. And everybody faced adversity and you know, bad bosses, and whether it’s toxic cultures or closed doors, you know, it’s, this is the norm, that unicorn that everybody wants that doesn’t exist. So it would be really fun if we could just normalize the process and the growth that’s required, and that it is a process, right? Life’s a journey. It’s not just like a quick sprint.

Clint Murphy  20:33

And so when you look at the journey, one of the things you talk about is, “all the clues we need to direct our career are already inside us. Only we know what we love about our job and what we don’t, the only step that’s left is to look for the places where our passion crosses with opportunity. A great way to begin, no matter where we are in our career is to pin down our dream scenario, so we can start building toward it.” So when a young person is thinking, they hear the words dream scenario, and building toward it, and long life journey, and they start to create their own map. What should they be thinking about as they put that together?

Renee Guilbault  21:20

So this is one of my favorite things to do. And I actually have a career framework that is downloadable, kind of, I don’t know what you call it an Infogram, if you will, that takes you through a process of answering, you know, all of these questions. And what I found astounding is how much it changes year over year, you know, as you kind of grow, and you start to learn more about what’s possible, your dream is grow, too. And your dream career today might be completely different in a year from now, based on, you know, the next few months of experiences that you might realize, whoa, there’s just really great thing that I’m really interested in, I would like to chase down that pathway. So I think the clues are inside of us, it’s what gets you energized, what do you feel so excited about doing, what gets you out of bed in the morning, and kind of figuring out, you know, all of those clues, and then just starting to make small pivots closer and closer toward them, and equally paying attention to the things you don’t like. For instance, you know, there are a lot of chefs who are incredibly creative and love to build recipes. And they’re not really excited about the financial side of the business, they don’t really like want to spend time in that arena, because they want to build flavor profiles and beautiful plates and that kind of thing. And so, you know, it’s kind of like figuring out, you know, what are the things that you need to do mostly, to achieve that passion, and what are the things that you have to do to support being able to work in your field of passion, right? Because it is work, and it is a job. And so there’s always going to be components of things that you’re like, Man, this is a drag. You know, like, when you own your own business, for instance, you know, you have to do the marketing, you have to manage all of your finances and call all your teams together and make sure you’ve got people who are, you know, documenting and downloading everything and preserving all the records so that you can get all your taxes done. All of these things that maybe you don’t want to deal with as a business owner, because you just want to, you know, create products or deliver services that matter to you. So it’s all these things that kind of give you all the hints, just kind of like breadcrumbs that will continue to push you closer and closer toward you know, that perfect job. And it’s a lifelong journey. I mean, I don’t really know anybody who’s 20 years old, or even 30 years old who’s like, yep, this is my dream job. Very, very few. 

Clint Murphy  23:37

Yeah, even up until you’re a billionaire. Pretty much every job has aspects of it you don’t like.  even being a billionaire, you probably have those but I have heard some who say, I have multiple assistants so that anything I don’t like to do, I just outsource. But most of us aren’t going to be there for a fair amount of time, if ever, so there will always be that percentage of the job that you need to do that you don’t enjoy for sure. And something you talk about, like I’ve got this idea of my dream that I want to get to. And then I’m here in my career and there’s skill gaps in between where I am and where I want to be. So how do I grow in the industry and close those gaps, whether it’s knowledge, whether it’s skills, and whether that means stepping sideways, or stepping backwards? What does that look like to pick up the skills I need to get to that dream job?

Renee Guilbault  24:39

Yeah, I talk about this in the book a lot because you see this in the food world. And I think it’s one of the amazing opportunities that employers have to really communicate with their employees about what’s possible, and where they can go and what they need to learn and achieve in order to kind of get to that next role or that three roles ahead marker that somebody might be interested in. And you know, there’s real value in lateral moves. I mean, I love lateral moves, because it’s such a great way to gain more skills and experience and then really become much more valuable as a professional, if you’re able to kind of come to a job with a much more complete toolkit and a lot more experience, it is going to set you apart from your colleagues and those that are competing for the same role. And I also know, you know, professionals who’ve taken lateral moves and just left them off the resume as well, because they just wanted to learn something. And it’s just something that was important to them personally, and it helped inform future leader them. So there’s no wrong way to live a career or to experience a career, it’s just all about being curious about growth and opportunity, and making sure that you keep you know what you want to be doing front and center.

Clint Murphy  25:50

And so when you think about that growth and opportunity, one of the things that a lot of young people can get challenged by is always saying no, or always being afraid of that opportunity that’s presented to them. And one of the things you talk about is the idea of simply saying yes, and for example, this is a longer quote that I liked is “half of the art of moving head is to walk through an open door when one has presented to you. For some reason, when offered opportunities that may not have a known outcome, many people’s response is to just stroll right by the moment. I think that’s nuts.  My entire career has been built on saying yes to opportunities, especially when it wasn’t clear exactly where that opportunity would lead.” So why did you always say yes? What are some of those opportunities that it’s created? And why do so many people say no?

Renee Guilbault  26:48

You know, I think it’s scary. I mean, I think earlier in my career, even in my like, mid level career years, I was seemed I was deemed kind of like a risk taker, or somebody who was always up for the challenge. And, you know, I said yes, to moving to other countries, to operating in, you know, areas that were far outside my expertise in terms of just cultural comfort and, you know, experience, like one of my operating territories ended up being the Middle East at one point for a certain chapter of my career. And, you know, being an American woman in that kind of, you know, neck of the world was just like, such a wild opportunity and a gift of learning and experience. And also, it’s really hard to be away from home and your friends and you know, to not sleep in your own bed at night and have to say goodbye to your cat. And you know, all those things, I think that it’s scary. The unknown and people, of course, have a natural tendency to want to stick to the things they feel comfortable with. But if you’re willing to take a risk, and if you’re willing to say yes to an opportunity without knowing exactly where it will go, you’re going to learn so much, you’re going to create so many new relationships, you’re going to have so many new experiences. And it’s just a chapter, right. And that’s the thing, I think, you know, some of us old timers, always realize is that just if some things feel like, oh my god, this is it, my life is gonna be over, this is the end of the road, but it’s not, it’s just a chapter. So you can always turn the page. So I’m a big believer in saying yes.

Clint Murphy  28:25

And so when you think about that, it makes a lot of sense. And when you look back on your career and your life, and you know, even I refer to it as a law of diminishing age. And that, when you’re 20, that two year secondment to Europe, it’s 10% of your life, it feels like forever, like oh my gosh, that’s so long. But when you’re 40 or 50, and you look back at those two years, it was such a short window of your 40 or 50 years, it’s so much less than it was then. And you look at it and say, oh, that was a great fond memory I have of what I learned and how I grew and how I developed. So how can we help our listeners make that shift from it’s scary, it’s daunting to it’s a chapter in all grow, and I’ll learn and I’ll move forward and I’ll be better for it.

Renee Guilbault  29:23

Yeah, I mean, I think it’s a really good question. I think, believe in yourself, believe in your, you know, ability to pivot and to say yes to something for a while and then to turn around and say no. I mean, life is long, and opportunities are incredible. And there is a point where they will start passing you by. So believe in yourself and take a shot. If it’s something that is remotely interesting to you. go for it and you won’t regret it. You might regret missing the moment and missing the opportunity and looking back and saying why didn’t I just do that one thing. And so that’s what I would say, believe in yourself, you can do it, you got this.

Clint Murphy  30:05

And when you think about the young listeners and looking forward in their career, they want to be those leaders, they want to be in those good positions, they want the best job. And one of the things that you noted about people who are in those positions is they focused on their own leadership development, on their continued learning. And it made them better leaders, and ultimately made their team performance stronger. So what does that look like as it relates to continuous learning, continuous growth, continuous development? How has that shaped your career? And how should the young listeners think about that in their day to day lives.

Renee Guilbault  30:48

 Be curious and hold a learning mindset above everything else. Because if you’re learning you’re growing, and if you’re growing, things are in motion, and opportunities are happening. And I think the leaders that certainly have most impacted me, and also, you’ll hear a lot in the interviews across the book, those who prioritized their own kind of emotional intelligence, their ability to like really, and genuinely remove obstacles from their teams to strive every day to find a way to make their employees’ jobs easier. Those are the folks who continue to be lifted up into leadership roles. And, you know, critical feedback is really important. People who figure out early on that feedback is a gift. I mean, of course, yes, there are always people who kind of abuse that privilege, or don’t make it as productive as it as it could be. But, you know, if somebody’s trying to help you become the strongest, most capable version of yourself in a professional capacity, there’s gold in there, you don’t have to agree with everything. But you know, you need to listen to it. Because  in this is, this is the wild thing about perception. Whether or not it’s true or not, it doesn’t even matter. The perception is real. And, you know, it’s really, really hard for I think, you know, certain personality types, me included, by the way, stubborn as a mule, to kind of welcome and invite that criticism, as an opportunity to grow and become stronger and become better. And that’s the gift of learning. And that’s the gift of curiosity. So exploring things and discovering things from a place of genuine curiosity as opposed to nope, I’m good. And you know, I’m a great leader, and I got this, I think you’ll see quite the difference in you know, the career impacts of those who remain open and growing. And those who don’t. 

Clint Murphy  32:46

So let’s dig into something you said, right, there is you talked about whether it’s true or not, doesn’t matter. It’s the perception that matters, in that can often be the piece that we’re missing. We intend to show up a certain way and we’re perceive another way. So how important is it to understand well, how am I being perceived, and you talk about the concept of intentionality? How do you want to be known, so you can act that way so that you are perceived the way you want. And from an EQ perspective, now we’re talking about self awareness, versus self management. And if the perception is different from how we want it to be, that means we’re probably not high on the self awareness, or we’re not managing ourselves the way we need to intentionally. I threw a bunch of stuff in there, but I hope you’ve got where I’m going? Do you want to dive into that perception and intention and self management? 

Renee Guilbault  33:48

Yeah, I mean, this was it was a really rough lesson for me to learn this in my early management years. And it was really deeply valuable. And something that I’ve talked to so many team members over all the years about, you know, just, it’s so easy to kind of dig your heels in and say, No, this person is wrong, or you’re wrong. This is not what I’m doing. This is not what I’m putting out there. This is what I’m doing, and why can’t you recognize that. But once you get to a place of understanding that actually, it’s not about wrong or right. It’s about trying to help you succeed, and trying to help you be the most impactful you can be.  , you know, Like I said, that intention of providing the feedback in the first place really matters a lot. And there are people who, you know, don’t kind of hold that as a precious gift in the way that it should be held. So just want to acknowledge that. If you’re getting feedback, that really feels like criticism that’s not productive, you know, yeah, raise an eyebrow and put it in your pocket. But I think the majority of feedback that comes from managers and leaders who are established and really good at what they do is incredibly valuable because it’s information. It’s information you can use to pivot or choose not to. It’s information that you can use to understand you know, how you can continue to progress in an organized as Asian and achieve different roles, promotions and opportunities, and what they’re looking for, and what they value. And also, you know, it’s something that you can just sit there and ignore, it’s all available to you. It’s just all up to you too. And I am somebody who really, over the years came to value critical feedback, because it made me stronger and better. And so for that, I was very grateful for the people who took the time to tell me the truth that I needed to hear.

Clint Murphy  35:27

And so when you get that feedback, and you say, Okay, people think I’m showing up like this, but this is how I want to show up, how do you use that map, and modify your behavior to intentionally show up and be perceived, the way that you want to be perceived?

Renee Guilbault  35:48

Well, like I can use myself as an example, which I wrote about in the book, you know, I was coached largely by middle aged men, and I felt that I needed to mirror their behaviors, and you know, kind of create no distractions and kind of have a no nonsense approach. You know, and it was through a lot of feedback over over, you know, years where I realized, actually, I can reveal a lot more of myself and still be taken seriously as a professional. And I don’t need to, you know, put on my professional, you know, costume every day of my buttoned up collared shirts and my crisp pants. And I even I did that for years, because it was part of like creating that authority, the respectability, but also like, no distractions, so that we could just focus on the work. And I realized, as I got older and more comfortable with myself, and I had more experience, and I saw other managers and leaders, really sharing and revealing who they were including some incredibly surprising moments with very high level executives, that were so transparent and meaningful, I thought, I don’t actually have to do this, I learned this. And now I can unlearn this. So that was a gift. But if I had not had those moments, and I’ve not been, you know, receiving that feedback in a way that was productive, I’m sure that I would not have been able to kind of make those shifts. And that would have been a missed opportunity in a really big way. So very grateful for the folks that weighed in.

Clint Murphy  37:19

The other thing you talked about in the learning was you talked about emotional intelligence. So people often think as they’re climbing the ladder, I need more technical skills, and I need more hands on experience, I need more technical knowledge. But that really just gets our foot in the door and knowing how to be empathetic, and listen, and be mindful, become what allows us to take those leadership steps, how important is emotional intelligence learning on this journey? And what are some of the things that that the listeners should be thinking about when it relates to EQ or EI?

Renee Guilbault  38:05

Yeah, I mean, EQ is discussed so much, right? Because I think for years now, people have realized that the old way of like authoritarian command and control is out, and that it doesn’t actually build a culture of sharing and growth, collaboration, but it actually is quite stifling, and, you know, not creating space for innovation, conversation, and ultimately, growth. And so when we talk about EQ mastery or the skills that are needed, the soft skills, those are all the skills that support, you know, an individual, not only in collaborating and handling relationships, and meeting commitments and keeping agreements and kind of, you know, walking through professional environment with, you know, good professional integrity. But it also helps to support you in your life as you learn lessons, because remember, we’re also always growing, right? Like, some of the most senior leaders in the world are also going through divorces, they’re losing children. They’re, you know, family members that are struggling to put food on the table. You know, there are so many other sides to who we are, when we show up at work, we show up in one way to achieve something, a shared goal and a personal professional goal. But our whole lives are wrapped around things and complexities and disappointments and celebrations that people don’t see, that people don’t get to hear about. And we also bring all of those moments to work as well as well. So integrating all of those pieces of yourself and seeing how important it is to have empathy because you don’t know what somebody else is dealing with on the other side of maybe missing a deadline or screwing up a bunch of dishes in the kitchen or you know, whatever the challenge is at the moment and trying to understand and ask first before you you know, start to You know, create judgments and a plan of action and attack for you know how you’re going to help support improvement and those kinds of things. And that’s really what this is, it’s about, you know, being a growing, evolving human recognizing that you have those pieces in your own self, and that everybody else does, and that we all deserve the space to do that. You know, one of my favorite things to tell younger people is that, you know, it doesn’t matter that you made this huge mistake, or you did this totally horrible thing that you think is so horrible. What matters is what you learned from it, and that you’re not going to repeat it again, and how you’re going to share those learnings with others to help them not make those same mistakes. But guess what, you get to make all new ones. And there is no human that escapes this right? This is the life’s journey.

Clint Murphy  40:44

Yeah. When you take those failures simply as feedback and a way to learn and grow. And when you look at the leaders you’ve seen over the years. And you think about this command and control and authoritarian leadership styles. Where do you see the most room for development for lung young leaders on their transition into leadership from an EQ perspective? Where do you think the spots that get missed the most are that they should really zone in?

Renee Guilbault  41:16

Yeah, I mean, that’s, it’s an easy and obvious one for me. But it’s also something I’m very focused on a work these days. But it’s really about senior leaders taking the time to broaden the perspectives and practices of those around them. Because when you start to invest in sharing the stories and lessons of your own experiences with the younger folks, they do all those things we talked about before. It helps them to know that they’re not alone, that there’s growth and wonderful things ahead, even if they’re in a moment that doesn’t feel great, or they’re having to take on a new skill, like public speaking that they’re not comfortable with, that they don’t want to do. And you know how kind of exercising their resilience muscle or their capacity to stay in it, and take the learnings and not give up and keep moving forward shines a spotlight on what is achievable and possible, because then those leaders who are sharing those stories are also the examples of what they can achieve if they keep growing. So broadening the perspectives and practices of those around you, I think is the biggest thing you can do to help develop your teams in every which way.

Clint Murphy  42:21

And so what I find fascinating about that one and and I’ve always enjoyed is, you know, when you think about as an example, as parents, and you’re talking about your kids, and people are talking about their kids in high school and saying, oh, no, my kids don’t think about that at this age, or, you know, they don’t think about that till they’re that age.  Like, how do people so easily forget, when they were that age? How do they so easily forget when they were the line cook? Or they were the server and now they’re the leader of a big organization? And they’re not understanding the impact on those people when they’ve had those jobs?

Renee Guilbault  43:03

Yeah, I mean, that’s a really good question. I wish I had a good answer for you. I can’t relate to that. So it’s hard for me to understand why folks forget or why they gloss over the importance of learning through adversity, right. I think we’ve lifted up a lot of young people, a lot of billionaires like, you know, Mark Zuckerberg, and, you know, these unicorn, whatever, career trajectories that that simply are unicorns, right? Like but somehow they’ve become this normalized standard of success and achievement. And, you know, nobody has had to work through it to get to these kind of senior levels of leadership were to that, you know, kind of status and professional level. And I think, as a society, the way that we hold those roles, and those unicorns as like, the beacon of success is just a terrible crime. Cause I don’t think that that’s what success really looks like. I think success is wrapped around all sorts of other things. I train this out and in some of my training modules, but like, let’s write your leadership obituary, you know, what do you want people to say about you when you’re not here anymore, because they’re not going to remember that you nailed your budget every time and that you outperformed, and you helped everybody get a great Christmas bonus when you’re, you know, what they’re going to remember how you made them feel, whether you shared openly with them and helped them to grow and evolve, whether you supported them and you know, stuck by them and, you know, kind of open doors and created an environment that was not only pleasant, but fun and dynamic and robust and celebratory of people skills and passions and pathways like unlocking those things. That’s what success is living. Living a life of high value that helps others is success, to me anyway. And so I think when you unpack what success is, I think parents sometimes go for the shiny things, right? The degree from the right college, the job at the right company, but there’s so many different pathways, there’s no one right way. And so success to me really is defined by, you know, your unique footprint on the world. And how are you leaving it? Because unfortunately, we all do have to leave.

Clint Murphy  45:27

And so when you have someone write that leadership obituary, what does that look like? Walk me through that process of, you know, you’re saying, hey, Clint, we’re gonna write your leadership obituary. What is that? What do I do? What’s the process.

Renee Guilbault  45:40

The process is basically exactly that.  Take a minutes or 15 minutes to quietly reflect on what you would want people to say about you, and what means the most to you, and what are the marks you want to leave on the world. And then spending, you know a certain amount of time sharing those openly with your peers and colleagues, so that people can really start to understand and intentionalize you know, what others are thinking what others care about, helps inform them to think about, what they care about,what they want to strive for, and it creates a momentum on its own. And I think when you’re intentional about those things, and when somebody takes the time to just ask you about those things, it unlocks so much.

Clint Murphy  46:25

And then how do you use that, to guide your day to day, like doing the exercise is one thing, but now how do I incorporate that into my behaviors?

Renee Guilbault  46:38

Well, that’s a practice of discipline and exercise, right? Like, if you know exactly how you want to show up as a leader, and you write it down, you can reflect on that. And you can consider that before you have hard conversations and keep yourself on track so that you can rest well at night, you know, and I think it’s a self guided process. Unfortunately, nobody’s going to, you know, hold you to the discipline that’s required to remember your commitments to yourself and how you want to show up in the world. But by declaring them and going through the exercise of identifying them, you’re far more likely to exhibit them. And by the way, nobody’s perfect, right? Everybody is going to screw up and like have horrible moments and shameful moments. And the amount of times I look back at terrible leadership moments, I’m like, so ashamed, but also, those were moments of real growth. And so you can’t have one without the other and to take the learnings and to keep striving to be the best you can be, I think, is really all you can do.

Clint Murphy  47:33

Yeah, for sure. And part of something you mentioned a few minutes ago, you talked about our resilience muscle, and I’m a big fan, I always call it your get sh!t done muscle. So what does the resilience muscle look like to you? And how do our listeners build their resilience muscle, which really, at the end of the day, is one of the greatest contributors to our ability to sustain the long term marathon that is our life and career.

 

Renee Guilbault  48:05

Yeah, it’s so important. I mean, I am very fortunate to have the career that I’ve had, because of the constant encouragement from the people around me to be resilient and to, you know, keep going and chasing, and, you know, to kind of own my dreams and to own my ambition. And I think, you know, the best way that I can frame this from like, a coaching and training standpoint is that, you know, you are the only person who knows what you’re willing to walk through and what you’re willing to tolerate. And if you come out of school, and you think you’re going to suddenly have a $200,000 job, and you’re going to know all the things and you’re going to be able to run an operation that’s worth millions of dollars and manage a team of people. So that that salary is actually you know, a worthy exchange of your energy and effort. This is not the case. Everybody has to learn and grow. And part of learning and growing is working through stuff that you don’t want to do, that is hard to do, and dealing with difficult people who are challenging to be around, who are challenging you. And to continue to hold your own dreams as the primary fuel to keep moving forward and not let it knock you off your path. It’s so much easier to just quit and say I’m not dealing with that or no way this sucks or my boss hates me and he’s got it out for me and whatever it is. But if you keep holding your primary purpose as the fuel to keep moving through it, it will pay off and that’s what I mean by resilience muscle. It is exercising the muscle to stay and choose growth that will serve you every time

Clint Murphy  49:44

So when we think about those crummy jobs, it’s not every time it’s crummy, I’m just gonna jump ship.

Renee Guilbault  49:51

Crummy with a B. 

Clint Murphy  49:53

Yeah, sometimes it might make sense to jump ship it might actually be a bad situation, but more often than not, it’s just a temporary challenge that we can learn and grow through before we make the right move. Not any move.

Renee Guilbault  50:10

Yeah, no, it’s so true. And, you know, there are definitely, I’m not trying to say that everybody should stay in every situation at all. And I’m very clear about that in the book, too. But I do think that there are a lot of missed opportunities because of a temporary discomfort or temporary lack of like seeing a future in something because there’s a difficult project or a difficult personality in your way. And, you know, I’ve seen this happen hundreds of times in my career, now that I’m of a certain age, they’re temporary, people leave jobs. You know, you don’t even know what’s coming around the corner, that could open clear that, you know, obstacle for you. So, you know, there’s that moment of right now. And then there’s that idea of what tomorrow holds, and making sure that you make your professional decisions based on the lens of achieving what you want for tomorrow. So I would say at the very least looking at, you know, okay, let’s say you don’t like your job, you don’t like how your you know, daily agenda is handle,d the responsibilities you have to execute.  You’re tired of it, you don’t want to do it anymore, and your boss is in a-hole. So what do you do, don’t quit, go and find another job that’s going to serve you and get you closer to your passions. Because you’ll be in a stronger position to pivot if you’re already employed. And you’re already showing that, you know, you have the capacity to stay in a job for a certain period of time. And so these are the kinds of things that you can do with yourself to make deals and negotiate, how do you stay through it? And how do you activate that resilience muscle. Alright, I’m going to stay here every day. And I’m going to do this. But I am going to spend all of my free waking moments finding the next thing, so that I have a great place to land that’s even better than this place. You know what I mean? And so that’s what I mean by holding your goals as primary. But I’ve had this conversation so many times, and we talked about earlier, if you quit every job that you have, because you don’t like something, you’re never going to get to a place of achieving the dreams you have for yourself. So instead of letting other people control that about you, take the ownership, control it for yourself and decide what you want to achieve. And go for it and go get it. And you can do it.

Clint Murphy  52:23

 I love that. And so we talked earlier about hard situations, saying yes. And you bring up a concept that I love. And it’s the idea of JFDI. So what is JFDI? And how do we respond to it when it happens? And then when is leaders? Do we need to use it? 

Renee Guilbault  52:44

Yeah, it’s such a great tool in the food world, I’m sure it’s transferable to, you know, every industry, but it’s certainly in a service environment. There are moments and you know, this as a customer in a restaurant, right? There are moments where things are incredibly time sensitive, and you have to make rapid decisions and act on a dime. You just have to you could talk about it later. But the action needs to happen now. And so those are the JFDI guys, and I don’t know if I can curse on this podcast.

Clint Murphy  53:12

You can and I had one of these moments yesterday where we were, the owner wants something and people are debating like, oh, I don’t know if I can get it done by x date or y date. 

Renee Guilbault  53:23

And then you’re just like, JFDI baby, just fucking do it.

Clint Murphy  53:26

Just fucking do it. 

Renee Guilbault  53:28

But see, the thing is that it’s really a useful tool if you queue up your team. So they know that when you look at them in the eye, and you get that look on your face, and you say JFDI, then it’s like, okay, cool, no X, no questions asked, we’re gonna just we’re gonna go, we’re gonna execute, we’re gonna nail this thing. And then we’re gonna circle back and understand what has happened, and what was the why and what was, you know, what was going on behind the scenes there. And there’s always a time for that. And I loved having that alignment with my teams, I would prompt them around this and it created a lot of hilarious moments because, of course, we would all circle back and have conversations about whatever the crisis was, you know, but in the time that you need to do something, it’s a really helpful tool. So I strongly encourage all of your listeners to pick it up. JFDI.

Clint Murphy  54:17

Yeah, a couple of key things that jumped out at me when I’ve had to use them over time is  (A) is an early leader, I probably overused it (B) the when we can use it sparingly and less frequently, we get more powerful from it. But then that circling up to say in this, the (C) to say okay, what went wrong earlier that led to this JFDI so that next time the same thing happens, we’re not in a JFDI. Like did I drop a ball and how I communicated? Did you hear something differently? Should we have checked In with each other? How do we avoid this next time? So that we can have that sparing use of JFDI? Guys, we need this done.

Renee Guilbault  55:10

Yeah, absolutely. So that’s what folks like me would call the post mortem, which is always required. Because nobody wants to be in a JFDI situation really ever, it’s not fun for anybody. But I would also say that, thankfully, because of leadership styles and approaches, this goes back to the command and control, you know, being out the door earlier, explaining the why and having the conversations so that people understand their purpose, you know, that their actions are purposeful, and that their contribution is meaningful, and that they are directly impacting experiences and how those dots are connected is all really critical to not only creating a collaborative culture, but also when where people want to kind of activate and mobilize when they need to. And so I think you can’t abuse those moments, and you can’t lean heavily. And surely this is something that comes with tenure and experience, right. And like, one of my, like, worst management moments in my early career was I was like, God, you know, if it wasn’t for all these people, this job would be so easy, because that’s where my mindset was, I’m like, God, why are you guys making this so difficult. But you have to go through it to learn, you know, those really critical components so that you can then help others do the same. And that’s, I think, you know, explaining and bringing your team and constantly sharing with them why is so, so important.

Clint Murphy  56:30

And so as we think about the people, we think about the business, you have this concept of the Big Five in management. So what are the big five? And how can we be optimizing and prioritizing them accordingly, so that we’re balancing all of these competing demands, whether it’s needs of the business, needs of our bosses, needs of customers, needs of our teams. And then lastly, our own needs.

Renee Guilbault  57:01

Yeah, no, it’s the easiest way that I can organize how big your world is, when you step into to management on your way to leadership. And I think that it would have been a lot easier for me in my own experience, instead of having to kind of figuring that out along the way to have a real like dedicated roadmap to say, these are the things that you need to consider. And this is how you need to kind of base your business decisions and your team decisions on. You need to look at each one of these different and unique areas and kind of push and pull the levers to see, you know, how are you going to achieve your goals and make sure everybody stays on target, while you keep people growing and thriving in their roles, right? Like, that’s the, you know, the sweet spot. And it’s just one of those things that when you have a framework, and you can explain it to people, and they can imagine what that looks like, it also helps you navigate when things aren’t working well, right. Every single organization that I’ve worked for has had an entirely different culture and an entirely different like leadership, you know, value system. And so based on whoever’s leading your organization, they might prioritize something like the needs of the business over the needs of a team. And that tells you that’s information, right? That tells you what you need to know. And you can pivot and adjust your behaviors and your actions, you know, accordingly. And so it’s just it’s information to help you organize in a framework to keep you in line. So you know how to push and pull on each one of those levers. And I find it really helpful, and it helps a lot of people to kind of figure out, you know, how to manage, you know, tricky, difficult situations, and also how to make sure that they stay on point so that they hit the objectives of the organization, while supporting their teams.

Clint Murphy  58:45

And when you think about, we often don’t, when we’re making decisions, use a decision making framework. And so when you think about the Big Five, it gives you that opportunity to sit back and say, Well wait, before I act, how will the how will this affect the business? How will it affect the customers? How will it affect the team? What’s the impact going to be on me? So it gives us that ability to just step back and say, let’s run our decision through the Big Five framework to understand how it’s going to impact all these areas of the organization? 

Renee Guilbault  59:20

Yeah, absolutely. And I think it’s about keeping things easy and actionable, right? Like when you get to a level of leadership, you want to be able to deploy tools that that people find useful, and that helps them be stronger and better. So that’s the goal behind frameworks like this is to just make it easy for people to come to the best answer that they can for their situation.

Clint Murphy  59:41

And so when you start to think about that, you wrote this idea, and I want to understand it with you. “When in doubt, go business first”.  What do we mean by that?

Renee Guilbault  59:54

What we mean by that one is sometimes you really just you really aren’t sure which way to go. or what to do. So you know, you can’t go wrong with achieving the goals of the business and just kind of leaning heavily into making sure that you’re on target and your goals are met. It’s kind of almost like, you know, noncontroversial when you hit a target, right? Other things can be open for interpretation, or this was a successful team outcome. This wasn’t or this or that. But if you hit a goal, your business, you know, you can’t argue about that. It is what it is. And so from a career perspective, lean on  business first when you don’t know.

Clint Murphy  1:00:33

So this next question I’m going to ask you is a really long quote from the book that I didn’t want to break it up and it’ll give you a lot to chew on and share with the listeners. It was from you personally. So you said “I could have offered up ideas about how to solve the problems for that business all day long. But if I couldn’t earn the team’s trust, and inspire behavioral changes, all those great ideas would have failed, because no one would have executed them. It’s that simple. As a manager, as a coaching guide, no matter how large or small your team, the more investment you personally make in their evolution into more skilled and capable employees. And the more time you spend deepening their understanding of the financial side of the business, that are for all of you, it will support your success as a manager, their success as competent, valued and experienced employees, and the business’s success as an organization that fosters a dynamic and talented team, achieving awesome and satisfying result. Everyone profits.” That was a fairly long one. But I mean, it encapsulates a lot of what we’re talking about today, and if you break that down, what does that mean to you, as you work your way through that section?

Renee Guilbault  1:01:53

It means a lot of the things that we touched on earlier, but it’s also one of the most obvious and most under discussed things in you know, organizational team management. You are only as successful as your team, your success is literally the outcomes of your team performance period.  You can’t be successful and lead if your team isn’t able to deliver, and if you’re not investing in them. So it’s kind of wild to me that we don’t talk about it more, especially at the junior levels of management, and those who are just starting to really learn about, you know, how important it is to collaborate and to help people move their agendas forward, you know, personally and professionally. But that’s really what that’s about if like, it’s you’re not a solo rider, there is no lone wolf in business. If you want to kind of lead your own team of one, which is yourself and you know, solopreneurship, even not even entrepreneurship is the way to go for you. But if you’re really interested in leadership and management, being around people and being around a team, it’s time to really look at the team’s success as your own and really judge your success by how they’re performing, how happy they are, and how they’re growing and developing. That’s the marker for your success.

 

Clint Murphy  1:03:08

And so when you start to think about that, I’ve always loved a couple of concepts. One is, you know, always hire your replacement. And the other is make yourself obsolete. What are those look like for you? And how do those ring relative to what you’re saying for your people? 

Renee Guilbault  1:03:24

Oh, it’s, I would tell people all the time, you got to push yourself out of a job. Push me out of my job.

Clint Murphy  1:03:30

Yes. Okay, let’s do it dive in. 

Renee Guilbault  1:03:33

That’s really the truth. And I’ve pushed myself out of jobs, you know, without landing pads too, because from like an integrity standpoint, I mean, I’ll tell you very specifically, one just popped into my mind where I just thought you don’t really need my skill set here, you’re paying me way too much money to deliver, you know, 10th of my value. And I know, this might be a dream situation for somebody else but it just felt so out of integrity for me. It was really about aligning the resources behind me so that I could actually, you know, leave that job. And I didn’t know where I was going at that time, either. It was more like this isn’t right for this business. I don’t want to kind of rest on my laurels and accept the situation as a oh, good, lucky me. And this is something that I see a lot of people kind of trying to balance right. And I think you have to constantly evaluate, do you want to keep learning and growing, you have to hold your ambition and your dreams as precious, as something to celebrate. And it’s something to not hide or be ashamed about, but to really you know, in productive ways, help people to help you accelerate, right? And that’s the fastest way to do it is get your team to replace you push yourself out of a job.

Clint Murphy  1:04:47

So and because I’m the same way as you like, I just, if you’re good enough to replace me, then my gosh, that means I’m gonna have more opportunities. I’m gonna grow. You’re gonna take my spot, I can only take a new spot if someone takes my spot. Why don’t other people look at it, and it almost brings up the idea of Renee of abundance versus scarcity? Like, why does some people look at it and say, well, if I train Kim to take my job, my gosh, I’m not going to have a job. So I’m going to keep Kim down so that I can keep my job.

Renee Guilbault  1:05:20

Yeah, no, I think that there’s a lot of that fear. Fear is real. And a scarcity mindset, I think is is one of the trickiest, right, because it’s a trap. And it’s kind of a self fulfilling prophecy as well. And that is a shame. And so, you know, there’s so many things that I’m thinking about around this. But a lot of what this evokes in me is this kind of misguided idea that you’re not allowed to leave a company, and that you’re doing something, you know, maybe it’s a divorce or a betrayal with your organization, because they don’t have that next opportunity for you, but you’re ready for it. And you know, I just don’t believe in that, I think, when it’s time for you to go, if your organization doesn’t have that plan for you, and they can’t partner with you to figure out what those next steps are, then you know, you should go and find an organization that’s going to value you and give you the opportunity. And you should keep those doors open and those relationships solid. So that one day when that opportunity does come, you can go back and you bring all that institutional knowledge with you, plus all the new skills and relationships you’ve got. But we have still a long way to go. This is something that is called you know, the shared talent mindset, right? Why can’t we release people into the world and help them grow and thrive and invite them back? And people, just a lot of people aren’t ready for this yet. But the truth is, it’s going to get to a point where they’re just not going to have a choice, because people are going to go and I think everybody deserves the opportunities they want for themselves. So I’ve said this before, and you know this about me, Clint, I’ve said this before so many times, like employment isn’t a loyalty test. It’s an exchange. So you know, that’s I’ll park it there.

Clint Murphy  1:07:06

I mean, well, no, let’s dive into that one. Because I find it so interesting. You know, I’m in a room, and not necessarily saying where I currently work, because that would be not the right way to do this or next. But anyway, so you’re hearing leaders talk, and they’re talking about loyalty and like, oh, like this person’s leaving, like that’s disloyal and like you’re thinking in your head, well, loyalty works like two ways, like they’re leaving, because they’re getting more money. They’re, they’re getting a better title, they’re getting a better opportunity. Like, if loyalty works two ways, wouldn’t that mean, we should have given them those three things here? Like and why do people think when they’re in the leadership, that loyalty only works for our employees up? But not us down? 

Renee Guilbault  1:07:58

Yeah, I think it’s a shame, I think it’s got a lot of opportunity, and maybe even some of the most opportunity for organizations to really crack that open. And to kind of pivot away from this old school thinking of, you have to stay here. And once you’re out, you’re gone. And you know, you don’t exist anymore. And you’re not welcome back. And, you know, we don’t want to talk to you, I think it’s a really small way to look at the world. And it certainly stops a lot of opportunities for growth and innovation and capturing of all that skills and experience along the way. So I think, planting seeds and encouraging leaders to really ask themselves, why are we upset when somebody leaves us when we don’t have the opportunity that they need? And why are we not adopting an encouraging pathway, opening up our networks, helping them find those next jobs, taking an active role in being a part of sharing talent with others who have those opportunities, and then making sure those doors stay open? You know, there’s just so much more gained when people work collaboratively. And when employees and employers don’t feel constrained by a lack of opportunity. I mean, the reality is, sometimes you just can’t grow in your organization, there isn’t a role for you, you know, money is real. And you know, budgets just don’t come out of the sky. But on the flip side of that you can support them

Clint Murphy  1:09:20

And so you talked about that and you described it as the shared talent mindset, which is something that I haven’t heard before, and it makes me just want to go Google it because it sounds so catchy.

Renee Guilbault  1:09:36

So I would give the coining of this phrase to Stacey Payne, Chief People Officer of The Daily Harvest. I don’t know if she came up with that terminology herself, or it’s something that she used, but I also am very attached to the concept, the idea and I love that language. So that’s what I call it. And I think it’s a real opportunity for us.

Clint Murphy  1:09:54

And so how can I use that shared talent mindset concept in my own workplace? 

Renee Guilbault  1:10:00

I think first you have to, you know, have open conversations with your leadership, and talk to them about the fact that you will lose people, everybody knows this, especially if opportunities aren’t presenting themselves. And how can you be part of a collaborative environment where you actually start looking at other competitive, you know, organizations where you have networks to help people grow and thrive, they’re not going to forget you. They’re going to send people your way, everybody is going to send people to everybody, if people start adopting this kind of, dpractice and a mentality, and what could it unlock for workers and opportunities and thriving cultures and people maybe not wanting to leave, because it’s so awesome that they know an opportunity is gonna come knocking on their door when it’s when it’s ready to go, and that their leaders care about that? You know, but I think far too many times, we don’t have these open conversations, because it’s just kind of a no, and it’s just a we don’t do that. And, you know, we’ve invested so heavily in you, and how could you leave us so now you have to, you know, you’re banished from the island. And like I said, I find it very short sighted and, and I hope that people can be inspired by, you know, giving others a chance to be lifted up and opening up their networks to help them do that. Because that’s really, you know, what it’s all about, right? Helping people achieve their dreams, removing the obstacles to help them there.  If you’re a manager of somebody doesn’t mean you’re just a manager in their organization, it means you’re somebody who’s stewarding their career, something I call employer stewardship in the book, I have an obligation and a responsibility, in my view, to really help people achieve the things they want to achieve. And sometimes that means going outside.

Clint Murphy  1:11:42

And so a question that I’d loved and for the book, and then take you through the Final Four, if you have a few minutes is this idea of “If not us, then who? If not now, then when?” Can you talk a bit about what that means to you?

Renee Guilbault  1:12:01

Yeah, I can I, it’s just something that I’ve really reflected on in my own life, especially when I had my daughter, and just thinking about, like, what are all the blood, sweat and tears for. If we’re not kind of actively using all of that experience for good and helping others and passing that baton and swinging these doors open, then what’s it all for? You know, and it’s just really kind of asking that question of like, what do I want for her and her in her life? And, you know, how do I want to kind of look at these next few decades of work, and find meaning and purpose in them and make sure that I point every resource I can turn unlocking doors for others, because so many people unlock doors for me. They didn’t have to, and they did, and I’m forever grateful. And now it’s my turn, you know, to do that for others. And so, if there are things you really care about, that you want to make an impact in, you know, you have to ask yourself, what are you waiting for? Who else is gonna do it? Nobody? Or maybe somebody will, but why not you? And why not now? I think a really good, you know, important questions to ask yourself.

Clint Murphy  1:13:12

I love that. the Do you have time for our final four rapid fire questions?

Renee Guilbault  1:13:16

I don’t know what that is. But but let’s do it.

Clint Murphy  1:13:19

All right, let’s do it. So for you, what’s one book that has had a big impact on your life and changed your trajectory?

Renee Guilbault  1:13:29

Oh, my gosh, my favorite book of this year, and I wrote about it, and I have it, I could show it to you is Reframe Your Story, from Tammy Herrmann, and I think you’re very familiar with her work. 

Clint Murphy  1:13:41

I know Tammy, yeah, she was on the show

Renee Guilbault  1:13:43

She’s great in such an incredible thought leader. And the book is just revolutionary in in the data that it pulls. I love data when it’s coupled with stories and outcomes. And I think it really helps women to understand, you know, also that yes, you’re not alone in this, so many others are experienced these same patterns and behaviors and conversations and you know, dynamics in the workplace. It’s very, you know, very much work centric. But I think it also really helps, you know, men to understand what women go through in a way that most men don’t have that like bird’s eye view. And she’s so thoughtful about how she articulates everything and is so very precise and brilliant and masterful with her storytelling. So it’s just, it’s a hero book. I think it’s a wonderful book that everybody should read every gender, every you know, stage and age of career. It’s a great read.

Clint Murphy  1:14:40

All right, I’m putting that on my I’ll write a thread about, you know, the 50+ books I’ve read this year, and I’ll throw Tammy on there. It was a great story, a great conversation, just her ability to articulate what was in the book. It was definitely wonderful. And so what’s on your shelf right now? What are you reading right now that you’re enjoying?

Renee Guilbault  1:14:58

Well, right now I’m afraid I’m not not reading anything because I’m busy with my next book that’s coming. And as you know, there are only so many seconds in the day. And so I have a menu system design book on the way that I’ll be announcing in January. Yeah. And it’s not a full book, like A Taste of Opportunity. But it’s a it’s a real playbook for people who want to understand how to design a menu and, you know, a strategic framework that holds it all. So that anybody independent restauranteurs, or people who ran food, food and beverage teams, or food development teams can have this playbook with all the tools and kind of go through the process of they have a really robust and dynamic menu that serves the business.

Clint Murphy  1:15:40

Oh, I love it. What’s one thing that you have purchased in the last 12 months that you think to yourself, wow, I should have bought this a lot earlier. Under $1,000?

Renee Guilbault  1:15:50

Under $1,000. Oh, my goodness, that is such a good question. I’m thinking what what have I purchased? Oh, I know, a jumperoo for my daughter,

Clint Murphy  1:16:00

A jumperoo. Awesome. 

Renee Guilbault  1:16:03

You should Google it. It’s a toddler wonder Wonderland. It gets all the energy out and all the joy.

Clint Murphy  1:16:10

Oh, yeah. Well, that’s exactly what I pictured. And I mean, yeah, what parent doesn’t have those sitting in the living room at some point and just be like, alright, I’m gonna put your sippy cup here. I’m gonna put some like little goldfish animal crackers in this little holder, and you just bounce in, eat away and off, you know, maybe a little Backyardigans on the TV and life is good. Dad’s just gonna sleep on the couch over here. Not that that’s how I parented when my boys were babies. But I hear you.  Yeah, it was a lot different on the weekends when my wife would wake up versus, you know, you swap off and she’d come downstairs and what was that dragon one, the dragon story was on TV for the fifth time, and I was just passed out on the couch. That was dad’s mornings.  Little guy could take care of himself, he’s two. Anyway. So last, the last one for you is because the show’s about growth and mindset. What’s one behavior or habit or mindset mindset shift you’ve made in the last year that’s had a big impact on where you’re at today.

Renee Guilbault  1:17:25

You know, I think a continuous reminder for me in mindset is just the letting go mindset, not trying to control everything, accepting the outcomes as they are, giving everything your best and your brightest, and then accepting what it is. And it’s a continuous exercise for me in my life, of letting go. And, you know, trying to kind of, you know, in those post mortems, you know, go through the process of understanding what I could do differently next time or not, or what could achieve or drive a different outcome. And there’s a real freedom in it too, right, because, you know, life is good, and life is full. And also, it’s been a heck of a few years, right? Like for everybody, there’s not one person or business that has come out unscathed from our global nightmare. And I think just letting go and just being able to find grace and knowing that every you know, you do your best, and it is what it is. There’s a real gift in there. 

Clint Murphy  1:18:26

Yeah, I think we’ll look back at this three year stretch, as something that really leaves a mark on individuals, on communities, on society. We’ve been through a lot in a short window of time, and every generation has those defining moments. And this last three years seems to have been a really defining challenging time for a lot of people.

Renee Guilbault  1:18:54

Yeah, absolutely.

Clint Murphy  1:18:56

So we went pretty wide, pretty deep, today. Is there anything that we left out that you want to leave the listeners with? From A Taste of Opportunity?

Renee Guilbault  1:19:05

No, I think you covered it. I mean, it’s been an hour and a half of hearing about the book. And I’m very grateful for the opportunity to be here with you, Clint, and to talk about the book. And I think, you know, if I leave any like, you know, thought in somebody’s head as they make their way through their days, just believe in yourself and go for it and you can do anything. Set your mind to it. You can do it. And especially you can do it in food.

Clint Murphy  1:19:34

And where can our listeners find you Renee?

Renee Guilbault  1:19:36

They can find me at essayerfoodconsulting.com or atasteofopportunity.com or on Twitter @guilbeaultrenee,

Clint Murphy  1:19:44

Love it. Thank you for joining me today. That was a pleasure.

Renee Guilbault  1:19:48

Yeah. Thanks for having me. Take care.

Clint Murphy  1:19:52

Thank you for joining us on the pursuit of learning. Make sure to hit the subscribe button and head over to our website. The pursuit of learning.com where you will find our show notes, transcripts and more. If you like what you see, sign up for our mailing list. Until next time, your host in learning Clint Murphy