Clint Murphy  00:03

Welcome to the pursuit of learning podcast. I’m your host, Clint Murphy. My goal is for each of us to grow personally, professionally, and financially, one conversation at a time. To do that, we will have conversations with subject matter experts across a variety of modalities. My job as your host, will be to dig out those golden nuggets of wisdom that will facilitate our growth. Join me on this pursuit. Today, I had a fantastic conversation with Steve Magness, a world renowned expert on performance. He is the author or co author of Peak Performance, The Passion Paradox, and The Science of Running. We talked about his new book, Do Hard Things, Why We Get Resilience Wrong and the Surprising Science of Real Toughness. Let’s get right into the show. Steve, good morning, and welcome to the podcast, where I’d love to start with you, before we dive into your book do hard things is to give a brief bio or introduction to our audience. They knew who you are and what we’re about to talk about. 

Steve Magness  01:34

Yeah, absolutely. So I’m Steve Magness, who I am is a little complicated of a question because most of my life, it all centered around athletics and running. And that was my background. So I was an athlete, I was a runner, I coached runners, but then and the gosh, now past seven, eight years have kind of moved beyond that athletic field and looked at almost performance holistically. So how do we apply some tools, techniques, rules, psychology, science, around performance to all aspects of our life to get better, more sustainable success, avoid burnout, all of those things. So most recently, as you alluded to, I wrote a book called Do Hard Things, which was my attempt to kind of look at resilience and look at, you know, maybe where we’ve kind of gotten it wrong, and where the latest science and research and best performers can point us away to developing some.

Clint Murphy  02:29

So let’s start right there, because you start but before going into the four pillars, and how we do develop toughness or resilience, you start with saying, Hey, here’s some of the things we’ve got wrong in the past. And I’ll read your quote, pretty decent sized one and give you some time to unpack it, because it kind of encapsulates the first 10 pages before it. And that’s “Our definition of toughness in the broader world is broken. We’ve confused it with callousness and machismo, of being manly and stoic. The old model of toughness is represented in the Bobby Knight School of coaching authoritarian parents and the callous model of leading. It’s the myth of an inner warrior, one built on the misguided notion that at the heart of being tough, is a type of callous demandingness. It’s a remnant of a time when military style drill sergeants and coaches and parents who thought they were dictators, who thought they were dictated our view of the concept. Toughness has been hijacked. We’ve prioritized external displays over true inner strength, and there are consequences.” So it was a fair long quote and gives you a lot to chew on. Where do you want to dive into on that?

Steve Magness  03:45

Yeah, so thanks for reading that because it really sets the stage because to me, like that, quote, encapsulates one of the central problems I think we have with understanding toughness is if you go on the street and ask someone like, Okay, what’s it mean to be tough? Inevitably people answer with like, big strong guy, the like military, navy seal, the like, person who can put their head down and push through anything. And not that those people aren’t tough, but what it does is it it focuses on the external, like this idea that we need to look tough, and that look means that you don’t show emotions that you like, put your head down and bulldoze through everything that the old movie in baseball said like there’s no crying in baseball, no showing emotions, like tough guys don’t do that stuff. And it’s fundamentally wrong. Like and the reason I say it’s fundamentally wrong is if you look at the research, and I’m sure we’ll get into this, but like, you need to be able to listen to your body. You need to be able to not just grind through things but navigate through things. When you look at leading others, toughness isn’t created through that military drill sergeant style, but it’s showing people like hey, like, I’m gonna allow you to be challenged, fail, get back up, try again and do so in a supportive environment. So I think we need a realigning with our definition of toughness.

Clint Murphy  05:18

I mean, it’s interesting when you bring up the Navy SEALs, because when you step back and think about it, the physical aspects of the people that we visually think of, they may need that for certain of the physical aspects of the challenge. But for every big, strong, strapping guy that makes it into the seals, there’s five that look exactly the same that fail. So shouldn’t we be looking at well, clearly, it wasn’t that look, because those five dropped out, that one didn’t. So what differentiates that one from the other five? Like, what is it they have, in addition to this physicality that we need to dig into?

Steve Magness  06:01

Exactly, I love that you brought that up, because that’s what you’re kind of getting at is like, everyone in that situation is big, strong, powerful, like all that fit all that stuff. But it really is kind of that inner strength that differentiates it. And although not in the Navy SEALs, I was fortunate to talk to someone who was in a different special forces who kind of put this very clearly to me said, like, everyone looks tough, until like you get smacked in the face with the difficult thing. And then that’s when you really find out like that inner strength is he was like, You would be surprised how many people acted the part and look the acted confident and tough and all that stuff until they got, I don’t know, dropped off into the woods and told they were survive to survive. And all that facade kind of faded away. And it really is those inner characteristics, which we can kind of define and the military has as well, as they’ve looked at the people who make it in, in those special forces or doing crazy things. And most of them have, what do they have, they have emotional flexibility, which means that they don’t just hide away their emotions, they’re able to experience the kind of nuance of it, and slice and dice it apart. They have cognitive flexibility, which means they have more than one way to cope. Right, they don’t just say, Hey, I’m gonna grit and grind my way through, they are more likely to praise stress as a challenge. So something to go towards, that presents an opportunity instead of a threat. They process internal signals better. So getting back to that emotions, and then they respond instead of react, meaning they don’t like spiral out of control when the stress is high. But they’re kind of able to keep that even keel of hey, I get it, I’m stressed like this is a high pressure situation. But in order to perform like I can’t, like, let that get the best of me, I have to have that equanimity. And that’s you what the modern military kind of looks at, okay, how do we find and then develop those things, versus just throw people into the deep end of the water and see who survives.

Clint Murphy  08:16

So on the idea of the military, because you pointed out that in 1989, the US military, so this is already 32 years ago, 33 years ago, the US military introduced the Center for Enhanced Performance. And they were focusing on teaching cadets about goal setting, positive self talk, stress management. And shortly after that branched out to all areas of the military, and focusing on improving mental strength and resilience. And you pointed out that in 2018, the US Army is the largest employer of sports psychologists in the country, but then you step away from the army. And you still have parents and coaches who think that the Navy SEALs Hell Week is how we should be training eight year old and 11 year old kids. So how did the military figure it out 32 years ago, but we’re still holding on to this archaic model that makes no sense anymore.

Steve Magness  09:21

Well, it’s pretty simple because the military, like performance matters. It’s literally life and death. Right? So if the old model of and they’re sitting there and this is what happened, what pushed this they’re like, oh, man, our guys and gals are struggling. You know, when really stressful situations, maybe initially what started this is they noticed that people really struggled when they were prisoners of war, and like the Korean War and other things, and they were like, We got to do a better job of preparing. So in the military, it’s literally life and death. So they’re going to figure out what actually works and what’s needed often. And why didn’t that translate? Well, it doesn’t translate for a simple reason, because like, in the greater world, what we’ve done is we’ve held on to kind of like the movie version, because it looks a lot cooler to look and see someone be Rambo or whoever it is, right? Then it does to think, oh, that person is developing because they’re sitting down next to a sports psychologist or going through like simulated training to up these mental skills. And it’s not seen as a sign of weakness, but no different than if I wanted to get stronger, what would I do, I’d go to the gym and probably get a strength coach to teach me how to get stronger, versus trying to do something crazy on my own. So it’s the same when it comes to these mental skills. I just think in the greater world, we’ve kind of held on to this myth, insead of like, turn to okay, what actually works, what actually gets people more resilient, tougher, etc.

Clint Murphy  10:55

And that makes absolute sense in amateur athletics, partially because one of the observations I’ve had is a lot of coaches in amateur sports like your kids, they coached the way they were coached when when they were a kid. So despite more research that indicates, for example, in hockey, hey, you should never have kids just standing in the corner, you should have different stations set up and people should always be doing something. You look down and people are doing the same drill you did in the early 90s. And you’re thinking, well, that drill doesn’t make sense today. Like why are they still doing the old St. Louis. And then, so there’s that’s one thing, but then you take for example, the NHL. So take that kid’s hockey, and now you go to the NHL, and you have a coach like John Tortorella, who’s just ripping his players in the news, embarrassing them, like, how does the research be out there in a company that, because it’s a bit more like the military, I mean, millions and millions of dollars on the line, and they’re still hiring coaches that beat people up for a job?

Steve Magness  12:04

So that’s a great question. And I think it’s hard to slice and dice apart. But I think what it comes down to is this is you look at first, who is doing the hiring, and you look at people who do the hiring, whether it’s you know, GMs, or owners or whoever it is in this, often what happens is they either came from the sport, or they have a certain conceptualization of the sport that is stuck in, let’s say, the 90s. Right? So you get that same approach where it’s like, oh, okay, this is how it worked when we won the Stanley Cup or made the playoffs in the 90s. Like this is how it needs to be done now. And regardless of the level or the millions on the line, sometimes that’s what gets stuck, because sports are very insulated. So we saw this in baseball, for example, like baseball did all sorts of dumb things until the kind of Moneyball revolution finally made people wake up and like force them to be like, okay, like, we should pay attention to this stuff outside of the traditional avenues that actually matters. And that really didn’t change I think in baseball until well, I think it was the Boston Red Sox won the World Series with a bunch of analytics and people jumped on board and now you have the Houston Astros, etc, etc. And I think in sport for whatever reason, especially sports, like hockey, baseball, that have a very long historical tradition, where we still talk about Wayne Gretzky Gue LeFleur, like ever going back decades, decades, decades. And I think that there’s this notion of like, Oh, almost we romanticize that and want to hang on to that. And that kind of gets in the way for some coaches in some avenues. But what you see is like the coaches generally not always, but the coaches who kind of modernize and take an approach that is maybe more backed by both research and experience and combine that with some of their experience in the NHL or what have you. They’re a lot more successful over the long haul. It’s really sick. It’s really hard nowadays to get I think, be successful with kind of that old school model. Partially because also athletes in that area, they have more choice and autonomy now. So it’s easier to kind of move around and know what you’re getting into, versus just being like okay, this is the team that offered me the contract and I’m stuck here for five years, so I’m going to withstand whatever is going on.

Clint Murphy  14:37

And for our listeners, it’s important to recognize that although we’re talking sport and coaching, this translates into our everyday lives. When you look at the workplace, and you have that leader that’s banging on the chest and smacking the table and yelling at their employees. It may work for short bursts of time but it’s not a long term sustainable model to get the best behavior out of the colleagues on that team.

Steve Magness  15:09

Exactly. And the research backs this up pretty clearly, it makes sense with how we function. So fear, which is what they’re using when you have that, like authoritarian style and banging your chest and like I’m going to fire you. Fear works really well as a motivator over the short term. Right? It works. It developed so that when we were on the Savannah, and we saw the lion, fear hit, and we booked it out of there, escape, right? But then when that lion was gone, that fear comes down, and we’re okay, and we get back to normal and stuff. What doesn’t work well is when that fear is constant and chronic. Because our body just goes hey, like, I get it, I was afraid. And that worked for a little bit. But if it’s constant and chronic, it just pushes us towards like burnout, apathy, like lacking motivation, being like, what’s the point? Because, you know, even if I do, well I’m still gonna get like, demeaned or yelled at or what have you. So what happens is in the workplace, sometimes that fear can work for a short time, but inevitably, it fails over the long haul, and you see performance suffer, burnout go through the roof, and just employee morale just suffer and performance go with it.

Clint Murphy  16:22

And I found that as I read the book, and I went through the mental aspects, and I looked back on my last 10 to 20 years as a leader in the finance world, and building teams, is the greatest areas of growth for me, and for my team, consequentially, were learning to meditate, reading about stoicism, understanding cognitive behavioral therapy, and changing how I talk to myself and the impact that then translates to on my team. So let’s dive into that. Let’s dive into, we’ll go into the first pillar. And the first area that you talk about is ditching the facade and embracing reality. Can you describe the pillar at a high level? And then we’ll dive into some of the details of it?

Steve Magness  17:13

Yeah, absolutely. So it kind of comes back to that example I was using in the military of like, if you walk around acting tough, acting confident, like feeling like, you know, there’s faking it until you make it all the time. What happens is when reality smacks us in the face, like that, facade fades away. So it’s much better to embrace reality, which means, like, know the demands you’re facing, and then be clear eyed on, like, what your capabilities are, and whether you can face those demands or where you might fall short. And when we have that clear eyed vision, what it does is it makes us more likely to see, you know, those difficult moments as challenges instead of threats, because we know what we’re facing, even if it seems, you know, crazy. So the high level, like example, I’d say is, if you’re gonna sign up for a marathon, you want to know that a marathon is going to be difficult, and that no matter how fit you’re going to be, it’s still going to be a struggle. And you want to know, hey, I’m roughly capable of maybe X, Y and Z so that I don’t sprint off the line and try and do something that I’m not capable of. So it really is that kind of matching between, you know, challenge and demands, or demands and capabilities that kind of sets the stage for embracing reality.

Clint Murphy  18:33

Okay, so there’s three things we’ll unpack there together. So the first one in you put I love equations. It’s the accountant math guy in me, performance equals actual demands, divided by expected demands. And then I noticed that you added a different element to that one later. But we’ll save that. So we’re looking at what is it actually going to take? And what do I think it’s going to take? Or and part of that you said, like, what are you capable of versus what does it take.  And so how do we get better at each of those pieces, at looking at things and saying, hey, what is this really going to take? And what am I actually capable of? Because then we can pick up our, key thing to all of this is what’s that skill gap in the middle, so that I can build that skill gap.

Steve Magness  19:26

This is where it really comes down to self awareness, which a lot of times I think we think we almost have this this optimism or positive bias, which I think can be good optimism is a good thing. But the kind of optimism that I think you need is one that that was summarized with Abraham Lincoln, who essentially had what I’d call or what others is called like tragic optimism, which was like optimism over the long haul. Right? But in the here and now being like very clear eyed on like, okay, this is gonna suck right when he was going through civil war and stuff like that, and whether you like the word tragic optimism or some other variants, but I think there’s something around that of like, okay, if we’re looking at, how do we shape, or how do we understand the demands that we’re going to face? Well, yes, we can be a little optimistic, but we’ve got to see it clear eyed. Which means like, get rid of the false bravado, get rid of the like puffing your chest and just like, what’s it gonna take? And then the other side of that is, what are you capable of, and your capabilities comes from doing the work so where do you get that self awareness on? Okay, how do I know what I’m capable of? Well, have you put in the practice? Have you put in the hours? Have you put in the work? How did that go? Are you prepared for the presentation you’re gonna give or you just winging it? Like that right there shapes your realit., Again, to use the marathon example. Have I put it in the miles to get ready? Or am I did I just sign up on a lark, and I’m going to show up and not be ready, like that shape, you know, understanding that shapes what we’re capable of. So it’s really becoming that like, clear eyed on that vision.

Clint Murphy  21:12

So much to chew on on that one. And let’s go into the area where you talked about, you talked to an athlete that you were working with Dravon, and he said, “Everyone wears a mask we carry around a facade, projecting an outer image of who we want to be, but when we’re under stress, that fades away, and you’re left with what’s underneath, exposing you”. And he told you, there were two types of facades or masks that he generally sees people wear, how does that tie into our lack of self awareness?

Steve Magness  21:50

Yeah, so this is where I call it the inner and outer need to align to a degree. And this is a real problem. And the best example I could give is, in our modern world, it’s Instagram, right? If your Instagram life is like way up here, in terms of like, it looks the greatest and like, you’re always on vacations, and your relationships are perfect. And like you’re always working out and all that stuff. And in reality, you’re sitting at home, maybe lonely, not eating well, not working out, not having success, what happens is, like our brain is not dumb. Like, we’ve set it up to see the wrong expectations, and there’s a there’s a gap between that kind of false reality that we’re wearing, and the actual reality and the bigger that gap, the more kind of stress creates, because like you’re not, you’re setting yourself up for failure for not living up to those that kind of facade you’re creating. So I think in the rest of the life, it applies the same as like who you are to friends, to family, in your workplace needs to align to a strong degree with who you are on the inside, meaning like who you think you are, your sense of self, like all of those things, there needs to be overlap. And if not, then you might get away with it for a while. But as soon as that difficult moment comes, or that challenge that you have to face, the external just kind of fades away, and all you’re left is with the internal. And if you don’t have that good overlap, then you’re gonna kind of retreat to freak out mode, instead of you know, being able to take on the challenge.

Clint Murphy  23:31

And I hadn’t thought about it till you were talking about it right there, Steve. But when you read some of the sad or tragic stories of these over the last few years, these social media celebrities, if you will, who commit suicide, and then you read oh, yeah, everything looked great on their page, but in reality, this is what their life was like. It seems like some of that is that duality, or lack of consistency between how they’re really living and what they’re showing? And maybe that leads to a depression of sorts, and a hey, I can’t handle this.

Steve Magness  24:08

Exactly. And actually, in the 1940s and 50s, there are a bunch of humanistic psychologists like Carl Rogers, and others, who basically came up with this idea is it was like self concept clarity. And what they discovered and theorized is that like, the more clarity we have on our sense of self, the better we are in terms of thriving, functioning, etc. And it comes back to that kind of overlap idea is when we don’t have clarity, like it’s really tough. And the example I could give to everyone that understands is go back and think about your middle school days, when you’re kind of in the middle school lunch room and you’re like, well, where do I sit? Where do I belong? Do I belong at this table? Like, what sport or thing or activity should I try out for? Like, what do I want to do because you have no idea because you’re lost in middle school, so your sense of self and your clarity is like really poor. And that’s okay at that area because like we expect it. But there’s a problem when that kind of lasts. And we feel like we’re in that middle school lunchroom when we’re in our teens and 20s. And that creates that sense, that kind of depression. And that sense of low level of chronic anxiety, because we don’t have that overlap between our kind of inner and external world. So I think you’re spot on, I think even more so than ever, I almost think Instagram or social media influencers is one of the most dangerous things you can be, especially as a young adult, because it puts you ripe for going down the wrong path on this, like clarity of self.

Clint Murphy  25:46

And this didn’t get helped by it. And I know you love this one, in the 80s or 90s, the flawed science that said, hey, we have to make every kid think that they are an absolute, special snowflake, and that they’re all winners. Let’s get rid of trophies. Let’s get rid of MVPs. Let’s just give all the kids a ribbon and tell them they’re all winners, and set them up for success. So what was the flawed science? And how is that actually backfired. And now we have this generation of kids who are entering the world and realizing wait a second, I don’t get a participation ribbon. When I show up at work, I actually have to do the job.

Steve Magness  26:31

That –  I love this because it’s a consequence of like well meaning people. So this actually started by politicians out in California who kind of hopped on what they called the self esteem movement where they thought they could cure like society’s ills by just telling people they’re great and boosting their self esteem. And the flawedd science is this, again, I’ve said this before, but our brain is not dumb. If you tell someone they’re great without actual doing anything, or evidence behind it or anything like that, what happens is we don’t internalize it as confidence. We don’t internalize it as like, oh, this will actually boost my self esteem. It just becomes like a platitude, right? And what happens is it backfires because, again, you look at, okay, we’re giving people platitudes without like earning the confidence. And what the research clearly shows is that confidence demands evidence. So you gain confidence from doing the difficult thing, and then maybe winning or doing the difficult thing and getting through it, or on the other side, and realizing like, oh, like I might not have aced the test, but I figured out I can actually take on this challenge and learn how to do it better. What doesn’t give confidence is if you just give everybody a ribbon for showing up and participating, or you tell everybody, they’re great, you know, this was, I grew up in the 80s, and 90s and this was like, all in the schools at that time is like, you know, we just had assemblies and things where they told us we were great, and we were gonna conquer the world. And like, you could be whatever you wanted to be if you just worked hard, or whatever it is. And it’s like, you know, those things sound good in theory, but like, it doesn’t really impact. And furthermore, what happens is it sets us up going back to those expectations, it sets us up for a false sense of how the world works. Because as you said, like when I go out into the world, like, I’m going to face challenges, I’m going to fail, I’m going to lose some games, so much better and evidence backs this up is much better, instead of like, trying to give ribbons to all and create winners out of all is to teach people how to lose well, or handle failure and bounce back. Because those are the skills that we’re going to actually face because at some point, you know, I’m going to have a book that flops or I’m going to get fired, or like, I’m not going to be able to do what I thought I could do. And I have to deal and process that.

Clint Murphy  29:02

And when you think about, I love that idea that you said, well, the brain the brain knows truly what’s happening is if you’ve ever coached little kids in sport, you take soccer, you take hockey, whatever it is, oh, we don’t keep score at this age. They just play.  At any point in the game. If you look at a kid on the bench, and you say, hey, what’s the score? That oh, we’re losing 7-4 right now. They have a little debate. One kid says 7-4, 1 kid says we’re up six to two, but like they are all keeping score the entire game in their heads. Like none of these kids play a sport and think, oh, yeah, we’re just out here to kick the ball and make it downfield and have fun together. They’re like, No, we’re a team. We’re here to win. It’s like, it just seems so interesting that the powers that be decide, hey, we’re not going to give them scores. But the kids themselves are like, oh, no, we’re keeping score here.

Steve Magness  29:55

And you know, I love that example. Because here’s the problem and I get the idea of oh, we shouldn’t keep score like whatever in theory. But here’s the problem with that. The entire problem with like, quote unquote, keeping score and score in youth sport, it isn’t about the kids, the kids don’t care, like, they’re gonna keep score, they’re gonna know if they won or lost, they’re gonna handle that win or loss or what have you. It’s the parents, right? It’s the parents who like, freak out and go nuts and are like, crazy. So maybe the parents shouldn’t keep score, but the kids definitely should, you know, because like, what you want is the kids to learn how to lose to like, win gracefully, to like, compete and all those things so scoring can be great. What you don’t want is the parent on the sideline like yelling at the ref, because he blew the call for the six year old penalty shot or whatever have you like, it’s the parents who ruin the sport, not the kid.

Clint Murphy  30:52

It’s so true and I don’t know if the person liked it when I said it, but my first year of being a head coach for hockey for my youngest son was the first year COVID so no parents were allowed in the arena’s. Someone was like, oh, yeah, that’s really sad. Like, you know, we can’t be in to watch the games, we can only watch the live streams. And I was like, well, in fairness, as a coach, it’s really good. Because you guys are the ones that make my job horrible. I kinda kind of like not having you in there. But I don’t know how well that went over for them. But it’s like these kids are eight years old. They’re nine years old. They’re playing house hockey, they’re not even, like they’re not go into the NHL, they’re not go to the bigs. Just let them get on the ice and have fun, learn how to win or lose and just enjoy it

Steve Magness  31:39

Exactly. So it’s like, again, it’s one of those well intentioned consequences, where it’s like, you know, somewhere, some parents were like, oh, we don’t shouldn’t keep score. And it’s like, no, no, that’s not the problem. It’s like the parents who freak out. So let the kids do it. And one other thing on this because I love this topic is a while ago, I was talking to Tom House, who’s a, you know, famous baseball coach and worked with, you know, even in football, Tom Brady and stuff. And he had this theory, and I think there’s some truth to it is like, you know, why video games have taken off, and I’m like, more than maybe in our area of going outside and playing sports. And it’s like, there’s a lot of reasons, but he’s like, I think one of the reasons video games take off is because it’s a place where you can play games, win, lose, you know, get your butt kicked, with no parental environment, like involvement. It’s just you in the kid, like your other friends like playing games, and no one yells at you. So like, yeah, you get to be upset that you lost, but you don’t have mom or dad, you know, on the drive home telling you like, oh, if you only made this shot in this game, like you would’ve won, and you just get to move on and enjoy it. And I think there’s a little bit of truth to that where it’s like, maybe in sport, we need to bring back a little that old school sandlot style of where you’re just playing the sport and you’re keeping score and loving it and competing and learning from it and mom and dad away from the sideline.

Clint Murphy  31:40

I feel bad in a way because to some extent that’s evolving a little and it’s partially because if you look at, up until probably four years ago, let’s say five years ago, the parents hadn’t played the video games the kids were playing. But now like, for example, when COVID started, Call of Duty came out with a mobile game, so you can play on your iPhone or your iPad. So all of a sudden, a game that I had been playing in my teens, my kids are into it, and I’m like, oh, well, let’s the three of us play together, we’re having fun. But then we don’t win the match. And you’re like, oh, son, like, you lost me.You lost us that game. And he’s like,I’m eight years old. I didn’t lose anything. Like who cares? We get to restart.And I’m like, Ah, like, did I ruin Call of Duty for my poor little eight year old? And whether my poor little eight year old should be playing Call of Duty will save for another day. But okay, let’s shift direction on that. One is One of the things you talked about earlier was have you put in the reps. And part of that you talked about this concept of “arrogance sits on insecurity and confidence sits on experience”. And can you explain what you mean by that? And what are two or three ways that our listeners can increase that inner confidence? 

Steve Magness  34:21

Yeah, absolutely. So often, you know, this is like a theme of our talk in the book. Often we think of confidence and we look for the external stuff. But if you’re showing, if you’re boasting, if you’re the person who, you know has to show the world that you’re confident, often what happens is that’s coming from insecurity. So you don’t feel inner strength or inner confidence. So you have to almost convince yourself on the outside. Now this isn’t always true, right? I’m sure Muhammad Ali was very confident and was very externally confident as well. But the research does back up that on generally, if you’re the one shouting, if you’re the one claiming you’re the best, you generally aren’t.  Like that sitting on insecurity and we know this from kind of research on bullying in grade school, right? Bullying often comes from people who feel alone, scared, like they don’t belong. So they act out and act like confident, tough, etc. When in reality inside, they’re kind of missing some key psychological needs like, again, a sense of connection, or competency or other things like that. It The same applies to adults. So how do we develop confidence? Well, as I said, it comes from the air, as you pointed out, it comes from the reps, so the best thing you can do is get to work. And then remind yourself of the work that you’ve put in because we have short memories. So one of the best things to do is before you’re going into a tough game, or tough match, or presentation, or what have you. And there’s good research behind this, if you watch some of the highlights or visualize some of the reps and practice or recall some of the tough workouts, what happens is we actually get a bump in testosterone, instead of cortisol going into that game, which means that we have like a more challenged positive stress response to get ready to take on the challenge versus if we, for instance, when coaches show all the mistakes they made in practice, or the last game before the next game, cortisol goes up, and we see that game as a threat, and we play worse. And we’re more stressed going into it. So the same thing applies to everything else is before the big thing that you’re taking on. Remember, the reps that you put in are the things that you did well. The other things that I think, you know, quickly, that work really well is when it comes to confidence, we often think of our peak performances. But what I like to think of and what research shows is that think of raising the floor as well. Meaning that no matter what if I show up on that game day, I’m capable of x. Because if your floor or your average performance gets better than when everything aligns your great performance is gonna get better too. But you’re not sitting there being like, Oh, I hope it’s a great day, Ihope everything aligns, you’re going to show up no matter what. And then the other thing that I think is really important for confidence is confidence isn’t about perfection. It’s not about I have to look like I’m always on, always, you know, perfect, always performing. But it’s about again, being kind of real. And that in a weird way, vulnerability can give us confidence because we acknowledge that, hey, this is something that I’m still struggling with. This is something that I’m not quite there yet. And by acknowledging it, we kind of take the power away, because it doesn’t become this like, big thing of like, oh, this is a threat, because it’s a weakness, and I’m not ready, it becomes a thing where we say yeah, like it might be a weakness, but like, I’m aware of it, and I’m continuing work on it. And it’s not as big of a deal as I’m gonna make it out to be.

Clint Murphy  38:08

I love that one. And I want to take us back to the one you talked about, with the watching video. And so if you, a sport where you do that a lot is football, for example. And this one ties a little, do a digression and then bring it back to tha. When you’re raising a child with ADHD as an example, one thing they say from the science is, hey, your kid hears all day at school, in life, what they’ve done wrong, the best thing you can do as their parent is really praise everything that you see that you want repeated, or that they’ve done well, and reinforce, like, hey, I just saw you drawing for half an hour, like your focus was great. Like I really love watching you draw and just really zone in on what they’re doing well. And so now take that into the coaching room, because I often forget to make these translations from one area to another. I’m watching game film with the team. What I’m hearing is it’s better for me to say to the kids on the offensive line, for example, I’m going to stop this video when you did exactly what we want. Do you see what you did there? Can you do that on every play versus going straight to the oh, do you see how you screwed that up? And is that what we want to do is really spend most of the time on what they did well.

Steve Magness  39:33

Exactly. And the caveat I’d give here is of course we have to correct mistakes and like correct things, but it’s like you said we have a bias. Whether we look at teaching, whether we look at parenting, whether we look at coaching, we have a bias towards always correcting and what happens is we tend to overcorrect and over show of like oh this is where you messed up. And this is what we have to do and what happens is is just like your example with ADHD is the kid, that athlete, the child, like they internalize like, oh, I just continually mess up, I’m not good at this thing. And instead, what we want to internalize is like, it’s okay to mess up. But also look at the things that you’ve done well, and look at how you’ve made progress and look at your execution on like, hey, this is a really good thing. And my wife is an elementary school teacher so this really resonates with me, because she’ll tell you, like, you get in this mode, where you’re like, oh, I need to correct this, or you did this math problem wrong, or like, you messed up the sentence. But if you do that, like you’re not instilling the things didn’t that cultivate that motivation, and that true confidence based on like, hey, I succeeded, or I took on this challenge, or like, I really tried here. So another example in sporting is like, if you want to highlight things where like, we need to correct, that’s great. But also highlight the things that they tried to do that maybe didn’t succeed. But you could see, like, hey, I saw where you were trying to make this move, or this past and that was a good idea. But like, here’s how maybe we can improve this in the future. And it gives you that avenue, where instead of it’s beat down, beat down, beat down, then and the last thing I’ll say on this, because I love this topic is think of it also there’s like sensitive periods. So if you correct someone after a loss, and you go right after the loss, and you go, and these are all the things you can make, that’s a sensitive period, because they’re already down, and all you’re doing is pushing them down, right? Or right before a game, or what have you. Or another example is like in front of the classroom versus individually. Like all of those are different sensitive periods where maybe that negative thing like hits them harder than if you did it at a different time when the emotions weren’t as high, or they weren’t in front of their peers, or they weren’t in front of the rest of the class. And you can have like that correction without it becoming like, oh, this teaches me, you know, never to raise my hand and give an answer. Because if I get it wrong, I’m gonna get embarrassed by everybody, right?

Clint Murphy  42:19

So I was coaching a game two nights ago, and we were having a rematch against a team that had beat us a couple of days earlier, when I’m in the dressing room, I shouldn’t whiteboard and circle the net and say, hey, boys, last game we played two days ago, they scored four goals, right here. And all you need to do is lift their sticks and they can’t score there. Then we go out within three minutes, they score three goals from that spot. And I’m like, oh, geez, this isn’t starting well. But we turned it around. I didn’t talk about that anymore. I said, Hey, how about we focus on for checking. And they went and had fun and forecheck and won the game. But that’s exactly what you said. So they were already high stress, they’re already thinking about the fact that they just lost to these guys. And I’m telling them, Hey, here’s what you did wrong. Instead of saying, Hey, we lost last game. But here’s what we did really well, that if we build on, you guys can win.

Steve Magness  43:15

Exactly. It’s the old adage, like, if you’re playing golf, and you think don’t hit it in the water, or sand trap, where does the ball go?

Clint Murphy  43:24

Yeah, I love that. Okay, so we’ll switch to the next pillar. And my first question is a bit of a multipart or a bit of a monologue, sorry, but I was trying to tie two or three things you were doing in different sections together. And so you had Robert Wright wrote, in the book, “why Buddhism is true, what emotions are for is to activate and coordinate the modular functions that are in Darwinian terms appropriate for the moment”. And so then what you said was, in other words, “they are the first step in a cascade design to prepare us for action.” And then that processing you labeled, that’s our Interoception system, and I probably pronounced that wrong, so you’d be able to help me there. And the interesting part was that one, it’s not predictive, it’s react or sorry, it’s predictive, not reactive, which I was fascinated by. And the second was that when operating well, individuals are clear about their feelings, understanding where they came from, and what they mean, and are more likely to thrive under stress, anxiety and pressure. So it seems like that system is something that we want to improve significantly. And so I’ll hand that over to you and let you unpack my mangling.

Steve Magness  44:52

Okay, great. So it’s called the interoceptive system. interoceptive. Yes, which is basically What it is, is, how good are you at listening to your body and those feelings and emotions that come through. And the example I’ll use is there was a wonderful study on investors and stock market brokers that found that those who had a better interoceptive system actually made more money. And the reason was pretty simple as they could read their bodies kind of emotions and feelings as they were going through the trading, which means that they responded to what they were doing in an appropriate manner, versus maybe like reading the wrong signal and freaking out. So the other example I’ll give, which I gave in the book is, okay, how does this make sense? Well, if I’m an athlete, and obviously, I’m a runner, if I’m a runner, and I go out and coach says, hey, go run, and I start feeling something in my quad or my calf, or what have you. If I have a good interoceptive system, meaning I’m able to read the internal signals, then I know whether that feeling in that quad is like fatigue, or if it’s something that I shouldn’t feel, meaning it’s something that’s going to lead towards an injury, right? And the really good athletes are really able to read their body and their say, oh, no, this is a normal signal. This just means I’m getting a little tired, or I’m working hard. Or maybe I need some water or some fuel, or what have you versus no, this is my body shutting down, or this is my muscle, like starting to strain or tear or whatever have you. And that’s what it is for all aspects of life. So we have all these signals that are essentially our body’s way to communicate, and keep our brain informed and say, hey, something’s a little bit different. So when we feel that I don’t know that fear, when we’re walking at night down a dark street, or what have you. Why does that happen? Because our brain says, hey, it’s the environments around us is different, we’ve never been here, it’s dark, like, you’re alone. So I’m going to send us a fear signal to get you to say, hey, I need to pay attention and to not be on my phone in this situation, because maybe nothing happens. But like, I need you to be alert. So be alert. So it really is how do we understand and listen to your body? And in the question. Okay, how do we do that? There’s a number of different ways. But you mentioned one of the best ways at the start of this, which is mindfulness and meditation, which what else is that, but paying attention, right? And sitting with your thoughts, those feelings in noticing them, not just jumping to a conclusion, but being like, okay, like, I feel this, you know, I feel my breath, rise and fall, I feel that, like urge to move or that like little anxiety I feel from maybe wanting to get up and check my phone or whatever it is. And the more time we spend paying attention and aware, the better we’re going to train that interoceptive system, because we’re not just pushing away those signals, but we’re like listening to them. 

Clint Murphy  48:15

And when you think of that example, you gave, hey, I’ve got a feeling in my quad. And a lot of times you might say to a young kid, like, Oh, are you hurt? Or are you injured? And for some of these kids, they don’t even know the difference between the two. But how do you train them to start to see the difference between oh, it’s sore versus hey, I think I might have an injury. And I think of my oldest son, he plays football and basketball and a lot of hours a week and I asked him, you know, how do you feel? And he’s like, I’m sore. Like, my legs always hurt. Like, and I’m like, oh, like, when you’re playing? He’s like, no, no, they hurt all the time. Like, oh, like, you know, but he’s not able to, like really say, like, on a scale of one to 10 or where the pain is or what it feels like. He just has this general concept that legs.

Steve Magness  49:06

Yeah, I mean, that’s how it is, again, my wife’s elementary school teacher, and I think this is we have to look, understand, especially with kids, but even adults, how do we figure that out? Well, we have to give them the labels, the guidance, the expiration so that they can understand this stuff, and understand what is normal and what’s not. So for instance, yeah, my wife teaches elementary school and she was just talking about a kid the other day who was new to school and was freaking out and kind of throwing a tantrum. And like she had to sit down in a quiet voice and be like, you know, not just be like, what’s wrong with you, but be like, can you use your words to explain what’s going on? To tell me what you’re feeling in with a first grader, those words might be simple. They might be I feel sad, right? Well, sadness for us. could be lonely or depressed or jealous or whatever it is like, because we have more vocabulary behind it. But our job, as parents, as teachers, as coaches, and even with adults is to like give that verbiage behind it, to explore those ideas. So that we connect that feeling and sensation to something that we can use, which is our kind of language behind it. 

Clint Murphy  50:24

And so part of that is helping them have the language to be able to label it and then teaching them, because I believe when you describe this, you use the term nuance is what we want to increase to be able to do this is to have that the two components, the awareness of the sensation, and then the ability to interpret and contextualize that awareness. And a couple of the ways you talked about that they can use to address this were the idea of going deep, and naming it. What does that look like for someone to increase their ability to understand what’s happening?

Steve Magness  51:09

Yeah, so going deep is pretty simple is that too often with our feelings, emotions, we ignore and push it away. So instead, what I want people to do is like, sit with it, explore it, like, understand it, what does that anxiety feel? Like? Is that anxiety? Or is it excitement behind it? And then the other part, I think, is really important, is that naming. Right, it comes back to that elementary school example, if the only word you have to describe what you’re feeling is sad, then all emotions or feelings related to that are going to be classified as sadness. And that does very little good, because it doesn’t tell us what’s actually wrong. So instead, what we want to do is add that context and nuance and give it different names, right? So for example, I’ll use that running example, is like that voice or that feeling that I want to quit in the race. Like, you can name it like, oh, that’s just my protective self. Because all it is, is trying to protect me from like pushing harder and damaging my body. But I don’t have to listen to my protective self, because I just kind of acknowledge and say, yeah, I hear you. But I’m not actually in danger right now. Thanks for the warning, I’m going to still keep going. And we can do that with everything from anxiety to whatever have you. It’s just kind of label it so that we can then deal with it.

Clint Murphy  52:28

And a couple key points, you said in there that a lot of the listeners may not realize, but it’s great to zone in on.  One of them, you talked about the anxiety versus excitement. And the idea that certain emotions physiologically may show up the same way. So when you feel excited, you may have the same energy in your body as when you feel anxious, and how you label it may allow you to perform better. So instead of saying, well, I feel anxious for this speech I’m about to give. You could say, well, I feel excited for this speech I’m about to give and changing the label. And oh, gosh, the second one was a good one. And I forget it at the moment. So let’s focus on that energy system and recognizing that you can have two different sides of it.

Steve Magness  53:18

Exactly. I think that’s, you know, the easiest example there is, and what latest psychology shows us is that, like the context we apply to our what we’re feeling and experience helps shapes, like how we respond to it, so our behavioral action. So I can have that same feeling, you know, I’m about to step on stage, or to the starting line or what have you. And like the underlying physiology is pretty similar with some cortisol, some adrenaline and all that stuff. But if I interpret that as anxiety and dread, then that’s going to push me towards an action that is more avoidant, right. How do I get out of this thing? How do I escape this thing? If I interpret that and I label it as, hey, I get it, this feels a little unnerving but it’s also my adrenaline getting me ready. Like, of course, I’m a little nervous because I’m about to do something that’s very difficult. And what do I want to be able to do when I am difficult? Well, I want the adrenaline to keep me focused and supply, you know, have energy go into my muscles so I can move and all that good stuff. So it’s a little exciting to go through it. And that shapes a different behavioral response. It tells me, hey, it’s normal to feel this stuff. And this stuff is getting me prepared for action. So I’m going to take this on instead of avoid it,

Clint Murphy  54:40

Love it. And recall the second one, Steve is when you said, understanding what that emotion is and going deep on it and you said people push it away. One of the things that a lot of us do, is we go to avoidance tools whether it’s porn, alcohol, drugs, and a large part of that is because we’re uncomfortable with what’s actually happening. And so one of the things you might often say to someone is, before you have that drink, just ask yourself, what is it that I’m trying to avoid? And I think what you’re suggesting, when you ask them that is, go deep, explore what the emotion is, before you try to kick it away with a beer.

Steve Magness  55:29

Exactly. And there’s, this applies to so many things in life. And I’ll give you another example is in the modern world, think of boredom, like, what do we do when we just feel bored? If you’re standing in line at the movie theater or at the airport, you pick up your phone? Right? Why do we do that? Well, we do that instinctually, because the feeling of boredom is a little uncomfortable. And so we reach for our phone, as you said, to cope with it. And there are so many things in life where we just kind of feel something a little bit and then our instinct is like, okay, what do I cope with, what do I cope with? And instead, the best thing you can do sometimes is, well, you feel bored in line, we’ll just sit there, sit with it. And if you sit with it, you’re going to like, go, deep explore and what happens is you realize, like, okay, I can be bored in my head for a minute or two, this isn’t like, I’m sitting alone in my head for hours, like, it’s a minute or two, like, it’s going to be okay. And you take away some of that power from that negative emotion and turn it into something that you can deal with. 

Clint Murphy  56:32

And so you raise a super good point there, because it’s one of the biggest challenges for people in life. And that is, the section from your book is the skill of being alone in your head. “It’s a foundational piece of developing toughness, and most of us are horrible at it. When we’re alone with our thoughts, everything is amplified. The apparent power between the feelings thoughts increased several fold our likelihood of pushing towards rumination and spiraling increases, the solution is pretty straightforward. Get used to being alone in your head.” And so for, for me, some of the things that you talk about Buddhism, CBT, they help and  we’ll take it back after to the fact that we have 35,000 thoughts a day and how to think about those thoughts. But how do people use meditation, Buddhism, CBT, to deal with this being alone in their head.

Steve Magness  57:31

You know, this is like the the modern human condition or the it’s the human condition, like we don’t like being alone in our head. So I think all of those tools, whether you’re looking at Buddhism, CBT, excitement, acceptance, and commitment therapy, like all of them work really well. And what I would suggest is, what happens is, we often let the kind of complexity or what have you get in the way of actually taking action. So instead of thinking, like, oh, I have to sit down and meditate, or I have to go to a therapist and practice, you know, learn to practice cognitive behavioral therapy, is make it simple, and make it consistent in your life in whatever manner that is. So if you don’t like to meditate, well, guess what, if you have a dog, go take your dog for a walk, and leave your phone at home and just enjoy the walk. And you don’t have to necessarily think, Oh, I’m going to pay attention to this, this or this. At the very, we’re so bad at spending time alone in our head, that if you just get outside and don’t give yourself anything else to pay attention to, that is training for your mind. Right. The other thing I would say is look for those small moments. So small moments, the standing in line, the doing dishes, the cooking dinner, like those folding or doing your laundry, like all of those provide opportunities to be alone in your head. Well, yes, you’re doing you know, laundry or other things, but you can be mindful in that moment. And the more you kind of consistently train that muscle, the better you’re going to be.  And the research backs this up is I think, often, you know, people think mindfulness and they think, oh, I have to, you know, become a monk or whatever have you. But the research shows that a couple minutes, four to five times a week shows very significant benefits in terms of focus, attention, like dealing with thoughts and emotions and all those things and giving you some equanimity. So if that’s all it takes to get started, well just get started and however manner that fits your lifestyle or function.

Clint Murphy  59:46

And you talk about an example in the book that ties to the go for the walk with the dog and on past episodes. I think actually my very first one I had a friend on who we talked a lot about creativity and mindfulness. And a realization I had with him on the show was I write a fantasy novel series with my sister on the side, something to do. And most often my ideas would either come when I was meditating. But the second one was when I would be out on a run, but my headphones or my phone, like there was one of them wasn’t fully charged. So I had to go for a run without music, just you know, 10-20k little jog, and nothing to distract me, and you talked about one of your runners, it’s not necessarily that I was, you know, like you said, in flow state, but I wasn’t distracted and that let my mind have some clarity and some freedom to do its thing. You want to talk a little bit about that one? 

Steve Magness  1:00:48

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I’m a runner. So this is like near and dear to my heart. But what happens is when we look at, especially creativity, and I’ll tell you this outside of running as well, if you ask people, when they have their creative insights, or their aha moments, it’s almost inevitably when they’re going on walks, when they’re in the shower, like when they’re doing random yard work. And you’re like, well, why do our insights happen then? Well, it’s pretty simple. Like, at some point, we’ve done work to think about something, maybe you’re writing the book and what have you. And then you what happens is you step away, and you do something else. And you’ve given your mind, the freedom to kind of wrestle with that subconsciously, and, like, explore it even consciously. And that aha moment comes up. But far too often, what we do is we cope, we go for the music, we listen to the podcast, we do the thing that distracts us, instead of having that space for our mind can to kind of like deal with and wrestle with the thing. And I’m not saying again, I’m not saying never listen to the podcast, like do it. But also make sure you have time in your day where you’re giving yourself that kind of time and space to train your mental muscle. And people will say like, oh, well, I don’t want to go on the run without it. Well, I’m not telling you to do every run without it. I’m saying, pick a couple. Or alternatively, if you don’t exercise or use running as exercise. Well guess where another great spot for that is, your commute to work, like just every once in a while, turn the radio off, like don’t listen to the podcast, and just take the whatever the 15, 20, 30, 40 minutes and just be in silence and driving and you’ve gone to work enough where you’re almost on autopilot with driving. So it gives your mind just a little bit of that time to space to be alone and wrestle with, you know, the inner world,

Clint Murphy  1:02:45

Which likely scares a lot of people. And part of that is also because when you think about our internal dialogue, depending on the science, I always use the the 35,000 thoughts a day. And when we think about those thoughts, if you start to examine them, most of them seem to be negative. They seem to be on a repeat cycle of every day, I tell myself how shitty I am at life, like oh, well, I start to believe I’m shitty at life. And so when it comes to winning that inner debate, you talk about three concepts we can use: inside versus outside, positive or negative, knowing what voice to listen to. And you talked about this a little earlier. And and then the one that really blew me away was this, this idea that we can reframe from me to she was the example you gave. How can we use these to instead of letting those 30,000 negative thoughts beat us up all day. Be in a positive state of mind and have that mental muscle to live life?

Steve Magness  1:03:50

Yeah, exactly. So I think the biggest thing or the first thing is to understand why our thoughts tend to be negative in the sense that they’re just protective. So for instance, I’ll give you an example. I have obsessive compulsive disorder. So I have OCD and OCD, you know, contrary to popular kind of portrayal isn’t necessarily a disorder of like, obsessive cleaning, that is the coping mechanism. What comes before it is like OCD, you tend to at least in most instances, you tend to have like these crazy thoughts that pop up in your head of like, oh, like, you know, for example, the cleaning, oh, I touch something and now I’m gonna die because I have germs on my hand so I have to obsessively clean. Or in my case, like I had, I have OCD around harm for things. So if I see a knife, the thought that comes in my head is like, oh, you’re gonna pick up that knife and like stab yourself somehow. Now, the reason those come out is because your brain is almost with OCD, it’s on hyper alert for things to be aware of. So you see the knife, and part of your brain is like oh a knife is dangerous, like, I should just be a little aware, but because you will have OCD it like amplifies it tenfold. Well, the same process occurs for everybody else, even if you don’t have OCD is like, we see the things that are dangerous and that we should pay attention to. And often our thoughts go towards those in a negative direction as if to protect ourselves. Right. So once you understand that, you learn a couple of things (a) s that you’re not your thoughts, and that often your thoughts are just kind of there, they’re just kind of, hey, there’s a knife, be aware of it, or like, hey, I’m driving a car, be aware you’re driving a car, and you could crash or what have you. So pay attention and then (b) is because we’re not our thoughts, we get to change our kind of experience with them. So one of the examples you you gave is one of the best ones to do is to create what researchers or psychologists call psychological distance, which when we create space between our thought and who we are, then we can deal with it better. So if I, one of the ways to do that is change, like how I’m talking to myself. So if instead of I use first person, like I can do this, or what have you, and change it to second or third person, so you know, you he, Steve, Jim, Bob, whatever can do this. Come on, Steve. What happens is just by that simple shifting, it kind of knocks our brain for loop and says, Oh, wait a minute, this isn’t the constant negative, like, first person voice, this is a different voice, I should pay attention to this. So in the middle of that difficult thing, you know, you change your voice, and you say, come on, Steve, get it together, come on, Steve, like you can get through this moment, what happens is our brain interprets it differently. And it doesn’t become this negative anchor on us, but it kind of frees us up. So what I would suggest to listeners is in those moments where you’re going negative change how you’re talking to yourself. And often that kind of frees you up so that you can deal with the thought instead of having it be in charge.

Clint Murphy  1:07:11

And do you think it’s interesting, because I hadn’t thought about it. But when we think of a lot of high performing athletes, you’ll often hear them speak in that way. So instead of saying, you know, oh, I can make that shot, they’ll be Shaq can make that shot or Shaq can do this. And you’re thinking, Oh, it’s kind of weird that that guy’s like using his own name, like who does that. But they’re almost creating that psychological distance. And they’ve realized something, maybe not maybe through science, because they’ve worked with a sports psychologist, or maybe simply, they’ve realized when they put that distance between I versus and even my oldest son sometimes will do that with basketball. Oh, Caiden can shoot three pointers, as like, when did you start speaking about yourself in the third person, like, that’s kind of weird, but he he picks his spots. It’s not like he does it all the time, he does it in a very specific spot where he’s saying, I can do that, instead of saying I can do that he’ll be like Caiden can do that.

Steve Magness  1:08:09

I think and often we make fun of athletes for it. But I think what it is, is think about it like that, if you’re Shaq, for example, and you’ve spent your life like having to do this crazy difficult thing on the basketball court and being under pressure and all that stuff, eventually whether consciously or subconsciously, you figure out some tools that work and you stick with it. And I think that’s what happened. And you can actually see this. Another way to create this distance is to go from talking internally to out externally. Because like, often, that creates a little distance, because your brain is like, hey, wait a minute, I’m not just hearing this inside my voice. I’m hearing this actually through my ears as well. And you see, all athletes do this. For instance, when they’re at the free throw line, you can see guys mumbling to themselves, or when their tennis players are about to serve and it’s a difficult serve, sometimes you see them like talking to themselves on TV. And I think it’s again, that comes intuitively they’ve learned, hey, this is something that works in pressure situations. So I’m going to talk to myself out loud, even if that sounds a little bit crazy and makes me look a little mad.

Clint Murphy  1:09:17

And you yourself had that in one of your runs. When you realize, wait a second. I just heard myself out loud. And that tells me that I’m actually not as tired as I was mentally telling myself because if I was, we both know you can’t talk. If you’re running your hardest, you can’t talk. So the fact that you heard your voice said, hey, I can catch up to my teammate who’s 100 yards up the road, speed up and catch up and have one of your better runs.

Steve Magness  1:09:45

Exactly. And that’s a great example of like, I didn’t know the science. I didn’t know the psychology but it just happened. And I realized after that I’m like, hey, this is a pretty good tool. I want to try and use this at times. And I think this is again, this is something that why sometimes we need to look at what performers do and like, take the lesson from that and kind of use that tool in the rest of our life.

Clint Murphy  1:10:10

And that’s the key thing is taking what we learn in one spot and using it in other spots.  And this next one, because what we’re talking about here right now is steadying the mind. And the second half of that or a part of it is the idea, and this goes back millennia, like people were figuring this out 1000s of years ago. And that is, it’s not the event that matters. It’s how we respond to the event. So whether it’s stoicism, whether it’s Buddhism, they would both say don’t focus on the event, focus on our response. And one of the better people as well who talks about that is Viktor Frankl who you talked about in the book and everything, or not everything but a lot of what I focus on in life, is increasing the gap between a stimulus and a response and saying, hey, give me more time in that area so that I can choose my response to the stimulus. What does that look like? And what are some of the things people can do to improve their response relative to a stimulus?

Steve Magness  1:11:15

Yeah, this is one of those where I just love when ancient wisdoms from like a variety you mentioned, like stoicism and Buddhism, but like basically, every ancient wisdom or religion tells us like, hey, you’ve got to have some equanimity or like, not react to everything. And if you are overly reactive, like, that’s the thing that causes you that pain or suffering. So to me, like, it’s all about how do we create that space? And again, I’ll give you the simple answer, which is, like, the more we practice it, the more we take simple opportunities, where it’s like something is difficult, demanding, anxiety inducing. And we do what Viktor Frankl said, which is like put some space between that stimulus and response, the better situation we’re going to be in. And this is what, like high performers, and I mentioned this at the beginning, they have what’s called emotional and cognitive flexibility. Well, what is emotional, cognitive flexibility, but being in the heat of the moment, and being able to kind of step back and pause and like, just create that little gap, where it’s like, oh, I don’t have to take the easy path. I don’t have to, like cope. And you know, or take the cheap and easy coping mechanism, or reach for the candy, when the vegetable or nutritious thing is sitting right there. So to me, it’s how do we train that ability, put ourselves in that spot, some difficult demanding stuff, and then work on kind of sitting with it, work on not going to the straight reaction, like giving yourself the tools so that you know you can flex, be flexible and adaptable instead of you know, just defaulting towards easy path.

Clint Murphy  1:13:05

And when you talk about that putting yourself in that difficult or demanding spot, which ties it to the whole concept of do hard things, is the idea that we don’t rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. But one of the important things because a lot of listeners can listen to us, because I always talk about build your get shit done muscle and you do it by doing hard things. And they’re like, well, like I can’t run a marathon or do an Ironman. But I think one of the concepts is just meeting yourself where you’re at. And what’s hard for you may simply be, hey, you got to wake up at the same time every day. It doesn’t have to be straight to some monumental task. It can be something small that for you is consequentially a hard thing. It almost never comes down to time. And reality is anytime you challenge yourself, one of the things I love to do is streaks. And so when you challenge yourself to do something as a streak you realize there’s always time. So how do you fit it in? Where do you fit it in? And are you willing enough to fit it in which ties –  just realized here’s a good segue into the last pillar. And earlier we talked about the performance equation. And you had said actual effort divided by expected effort. And then later we added multiplied by drive, so if you want it, you got the drive, you’re gonna go get it. So why do we add the modifier now multiplied by drive. What does that do to the equation? And how does that shift it?

Steve Magness  1:13:53

Exactly. And this is where I think people when you say, I’ve experienced this so much with the book, since it’s named Do Hard Things. People think like, Oh, I gotta climb my own Mount Everest, and I’m like, whoa, whoa, whoa, we’re just talking about whatever is kind of difficult for you. And that’s going to be different. So, for instance, you know, one of the most difficult things that we all face right now is like, if our phone goes off, we reach for it. Or if a notification comes out, we reach for it. Well, one of the simplest hard things you can do is you know what, like, leave your phone on the table and don’t pick it up. Like don’t pick it up during dinner, or while you’re reading a book or while you’re on this podcast or what have you is like, be okay if it buzzes, beeps, like you know, dings, whatever it is that you’re okay, like sitting there and not reacting by being like, oh, I gotta check. I gotta check. I gotta check. So to me, it’s like the simplest things are often the best tools for training that mental muscle and the other things that I would say is part of being able to take on those challenges and create those space is developing what I call, you know, we’ve talked about negative ways to cope, but developing some of those positive ways to cope, like changing your inner voice, or like being able to give yourself perspective in that moment, where it’s like, for instance, in the grand scheme of things, getting out the door for a 30 minute run, like, is that really gonna be that difficult? Is that really that time consuming? Like, I know, it feels overwhelming at this moment. But can I just get out the door, like creating that perspective, is another tool that allows you to kind of take on that challenge. So create is, so give yourself a variety of tools and develop them so that regardless of the hard thing you’re facing, like you have some way to get, you know, navigate on the other side of it. Yeh, so the reason I like to add this is because if you look at the science and psychology behind performances, we never reach our full potential, we always have more left. So if I was to go out and say, hey, you know, Clint, go run the hardest, you know, 10k that you ever have, like it’s life or death, go for it. Even in that situation. Even if I gave you said, hey, I’m gonna give you a million dollars, like, at the end of it, you would still wouldn’t go to your absolute depths. So it’s modifiable. So how far we go is modifiable by our motivation and drive. So the more meaning and purpose behind it, so if I show up for you know, that 10k and I say, hey, just try your best, you know, I might be able to push pretty hard. But if I say, hey, Clint, if you run this 10k at some point, I’m gonna give you X, Y, and Z reward, your motivation goes up, right? And you’re able to push a little bit further. This is why if you look at athletes who win things, they often, what do they do they thank God, family, team, like things that gave them motivation beyond just hey, this is a paycheck, right? And that’s where that kind of motivation and drive comes in. And the other thing I’d say is that the research is very clear is that intrinsic drivers, so not just that reward, or cash or whatever that have you intrinsic drivers are much more powerful and much longer and more sustainable over the long haul. So a big part of it is how do we create the environment and the culture to up those intrinsic drivers so that we have that motivation so that when it comes to doing the difficult thing, or in that crucial moment, like we have that drive that kind of get us through it.

Clint Murphy  1:18:26

That is the key right there. How do we help people find that intrinsic motivation in life?

Steve Magness  1:18:35

So I’ll kind of simply direct it to one of the most robust theories in psychology, self determination theory, which basically says, if we want to cultivate intrinsic drivers, we need three things. Autonomy, which means we have like a sense of we can make an impact, we have some control over the situation, not full control, but like our life, you’re like, our destiny is in our hands to a degree in this pursuit. Mastery, which means I can see progress, I’m getting better. I have a avenue forward for making progress in this job, sport, etc. And then belonging, which is I have a sense of community, I feel connected to othersc I feel like I belong on this team, this group, this workplace, etc. And if you can cultivate those three things, our intrinsic motivation goes up. So to me, it’s how do we create the environment or lead in that way to create those intrinsic motivators? And then three in our own personal life, how do we create the space so that we’re fueling those instead of fueling more of the extrinsic motivators that we often think of as like being the keys to drive or motivation?

Clint Murphy  1:19:50

Oh, love it. That’s a beautiful spot to end the deep dive into the book Do Hard Things. You have a minute for we ask a final four questions that are rapid fire at you.

Steve Magness  1:20:00

Yeah, let’s do it. 

Clint Murphy  1:20:01

The first is what’s one book you’ve read that’s had a pretty life changing impact on you.

Steve Magness  1:20:05

Oh, gosh, I read way too many books, but I’m gonna go with the default. There’s two books actually, I’ll give you both that tie into this conversation, Meditations by Marcus Aurelius. I just love it. 

Clint Murphy  1:20:17

Ah, such a winner.

Steve Magness  1:20:19

And then Victor Frankel’s Man’s Search for Meaning. I think it’s another just kind of life changing book where you read that and you’re just like, light bulbs go off and you’re like, This guy got it. Like, this is how I should live life.

Clint Murphy  1:20:31

Yeah, and influenced by, by those is James Stockdale’s short little read, because very similar takeaways to Victor Frankl’s. So those are two wonderful ones. Now I’m excited for the day after that. What’s on the bookshelf right now? You read a lot, I can see lots of books behind you. What’s the big one that you’re digesting?

Steve Magness  1:20:52

Oh, man. That’s a great question. So I’m reading a book and the names gonna slip my mind right now. Of course it is. But it’s on how disasters, disasters allow us almost we think When disasters occur, that people go into chaos and are selfish and all this stuff. But if you actually look at the research, it shows that when disasters occur, we become more selfless generally. We feel more connected to others. Depression actually goes down because we like, feel alive. And we’re helping others and we’re not self centered. So a wonderful, wonderful book, I forget what the name is. It’s like paradise, that oh, that’s what it is A Paradise Built in Hell.

Clint Murphy  1:21:41

Oh, wow.

Steve Magness  1:21:42

I love this. So I really recommend it kind of reframes what it looks at, again, are kind of common tropes around, you know, natural disasters, or war or experience of bombing during World War Two. And it’s really kind of a refreshing take.

Clint Murphy  1:21:58

I love that. And what’s one thing that you have spent less than $1,000 on in the last 12 months that you wish you’d bought sooner?

Steve Magness  1:22:09

Oh, man, less than $1,000 something that I wish I bought sooner, I’m going to be honest, I don’t buy many things except for books. So I like to invest in knowledge. So that’s. I lie. So one thing, you know, one other thing that is really important, and I buy lots of them is notebooks everywhere, because and I used to not be a notebook person, but now I am. Because like, I think just having a notebook on my desk, by my bedside. Like I even have a small one to take on walks sometimes. Like, it allows me to capture those thoughts, those aha moments. And like, also pushes me, almost invites me to get off the computer and just like journal or think about things or wrestle with ideas. And I think that’s so important nowadays.

Clint Murphy  1:23:00

Yeah, you have to be able to capture and a lot of people say they just use the Notes app. The problem is the notes apps on your phone. And as soon as you go to capture it, you might as well check out whether someone liked my posts on Instagram or not exactly get a dopamine hit while I’m here. Because the shows about growth, what’s one mindset shift habit or behavior, you’ve changed in the last 12 months that’s had a big impact on your life? 

Steve Magness  1:23:27

Oh, gosh, last 12 months, how I see how I see running actually. So for most of my life, I saw it through a competitive performance lens. And it’s only in the last year I’ve kind of seen it as more of well, what role do I want it to play if I’m not trying to run as fast as I can, which is more of, well, I get to go outside and be in nature, I get to be alone in my head. It’s almost like my meditative sun. It relieves my it can be a stress reliever. And like that simple mindset shift on something that used to be so competitive to me, has been really refreshing and also freeing. And I think what it’s taught me is like the things that maybe in our youth, we use for one thing we can kind of like repurpose them and use them for something completely different as our priorities change and as we enter adulthood.

Clint Murphy  1:24:21

Have you looked at it at all, and said, hey, I’m gonna shift from what I used to do, as an example, running the mile a lot. So instead of doing mid distance, I’m gonna do long distances on trails.

Steve Magness  1:24:33

Absolutely, absolutely. So now, I used to be like, oh, how fast am I running? Oh, let me go to the track. So I can like run my intervals the fastest because it’s the flat and now I spend a lot more time being like, you know what, I don’t care if I’m running slow as hell like on a trail that maybe windy and technical or what have you. It’s like, this is just cool. Another thing is, I’ll tell you that I used to would have beat myself up over it. is like, sometimes I’ll literally just stop and be like, hey, this is like I’m on an awesome trail, like I’m going over maybe a river or what have you, like, I’m just gonna stop and enjoy this for a moment versus be like, oh, if I stop here, this is gonna ruin my workout or what have you. So I think that framing has really kind of helped.

Clint Murphy  1:25:20

And there’s something Steve about trail running relative to road running. I think the way I described it to someone was, it has an essence of bringing me back to childhood. Because you’re like, you’re watching your feet on the dirt, and you’re having to jump over roots. And it’s like, you’re not just trudging on the concrete, you’re interacting with your environment.

Steve Magness  1:25:44

It’s adult play. And I think we miss out so much as we no longer play. And play is essentially exploring and like doing all that stuff. And I think you’re spot on is like running on trails is a great way to kind of play. 

Clint Murphy  1:25:59

Yeah, in the last part about that for listeners, because I love to encourage people to get on a trail. I want to get back to it is, you know, if you think about like a road race, like you do the Vancouver Sun Run, there’s like 10,000 people, like you are with people the entire time. When you go for a trail race, it especially when you get to the longer distances, you can sometimes go for like an hour or two and there’s no one in sight like you are literally and they don’t let you listen to music. So you are legit alone. Meditating in your mind for an hour on a trail by yourself.

Steve Magness  1:26:33

I love it. I think there’s just something magical to it. 

Clint Murphy  1:26:36

All right, we went pretty wide. We went pretty deep in a number of areas. Is there anything we missed that you want to leave the listeners with before we wrap up?

Steve Magness  1:26:45

Oh, gosh, no, I think we we covered a lot. And I just want to say I loved your your style of conversing. And it was really enjoyable to have this conversation.

Clint Murphy  1:26:55

Awesome. Thank you, Steve. I appreciate that. And where can people find you? 

Steve Magness  1:26:59

Yeah, so you can find me on all social media @SteveMagness. And then all of my work is also at www.stevemagness.com. I got a newsletter, podcasts, all that good stuff. So check it out.

Clint Murphy  1:27:11

Excellent. Perfect. Thank you for joining me, it was a blast. Thank you for joining us on the pursuit of learning. Make sure to hit the subscribe button and head over to our website, the pursuit of learning.com where you will find our show notes, transcripts and more. If you like what you see, sign up for our mailing list. Until next time, your host in learning Clint Murphy