Habits to Help You Move Freely and Live Fully


Clint Murphy Kelly and Juliet Starrett


Juliet Starrett, Clint Murphy, Kelly Starrett

Clint Murphy  00:03

Welcome to the growth guide podcast. I’m your host Clint Murphy. Every week I talk to authors, subject matter experts and millionaire mentors to share the lessons that will help you and me be better achieve more and become financially free. Today, I enjoyed my conversation with Kelly and Juliet Starrett, founders of The Ready State, a media based health and wellness company. The Ready State’s client list includes the US military, professional sports teams, and Olympians. We talked about their best selling book Built to Move, which provides an easy to use formula for basic mobility maintenance. It introduces readers to a set of simple principles and practices that everyone can work into any busy schedule, it will lead to a greater ease of movement, better health and a happier life, doing whatever it is you love to do, and want to continue doing as long as you live. Vital sign one is a really fun test and experience for you, your friends and your family. I hope you enjoy and get out of this conversation as much as I did. Juliet and Kelly, welcome to the show where I’d love to start before we dive into your book built to move is if you could give a brief intro to our listeners who may not know you both yet.

Kelly Starrett  01:39

Oh, let me introduce Juliet Starrett I’ve never had never. Let’s go. Lisa, our podcast directors laughing right now. All right, let me introduce Juliet. Juliet, she’s a Taurus. No, honestly Juliet’s a three time world champion, attorney, co founder of all our businesses. Reformed attorney, that’s better.

Juliet Starrett  01:59

Thank you, retired, I like to say.

Kelly Starrett  02:01

Superstar brain, has been the driver and partner of all of our projects, all the way back from opening our gym since 2004. How I’d do?

Juliet Starrett  02:11

Pretty good, pretty good.

Kelly Starrett  02:12

Amazing woman.

Juliet Starrett  02:13

Let me introduce Dr. Kelly Starrett. He’s a really good dancer and was in a folk dance troupe as a child. That’s true. Loves to move, we like to say that he has toddler joints. He’s the largest, most flexible human in the known universe. But, you know, he and I co founded San Francisco CrossFit together in 2005, and also The Ready State. And he is the New York Times bestselling author of now three books. And also Wall Street Journal best seller of a few books and his title at The Ready State, we struggled to find a title for him. Because, you know, I’m always sort of the behind the scenes person, and he’s the front of the scenes person. And so lately, his title at The Ready State has been talent.

Kelly Starrett  02:59

Like somebody you just hired. That’s good. We’ll take it, we’ll take it.

Juliet Starrett  03:01

How did I do? Loves dancing and it’s talented.

Clint Murphy  03:06

One of the things I would add, and we’re gonna get into it in a bit of a definitions for because some people still don’t necessarily know this whole mobility versus flexibility. And when I was talking to my wife the other night over dinner, one of the things I said was, I felt as if The Ready State as if you as a team had really popularized and brought to the forefront the idea of mobility as something we want to attain and achieve in sport, in life. And so maybe why don’t we start there? What, for the listeners? What is mobility? Why do we want it? And how does it relate to flexibility, if you will?

Juliet Starrett  03:48

Well, I’ll let tell Kelly take the technical part of this, but you’re right and thank you for noticing. Kelly definitely is the person who popularized the use of the word mobility, no one used it. And sometimes we feel that, you know, it’s it’s like a, you know, a heavy, a heavy chain attached to us, because it’s not the most sexy word on Earth. But Kelly definitely was a person who sort of brought it into the forefront of gyms and, you know, athletic training facilities. And what, I’ll let him give a technical definition, but we’ve really evolved our definition over the years. And part of that has been in connection with our book Built to Move that we’ll be talking about, but we’ve really tried to sort of evolve and make more accessible the definition, but I’ll let Kelly take the technical part.

Kelly Starrett  04:34

Do you want to say what the definition is?

Juliet Starrett  04:38

So we now define mobility as the ability to move freely through your environment without pain, and to be able to do the things you want to do with your body physically, whatever that may be. So we talked a bit about mountain biking beforehand. We obviously all share that as something we like to do but everybody likes to move their body in some weigh, and that’s a very individual choice. But mobility, having mobility gives you the freedom to be able to do that. And freedom to be able to do that without pain.

Kelly Starrett  05:10

One of the things that we are always trying to do is maintain people’s movement choice and movement options. If you can only squat with your feet set in a certain position position turned out a certain amount on one side, you have to put the bar in a specific position to hit depth on this one thing. That’s not a lot of movement choice. It’s almost like a way of thinking about it as if your movement choice and how how you want to choose to move or solve problems is a big corridor, we want to maintain the width of that corridor for as long as we can, but we don’t want is to start to end up in a very narrow hallway where we don’t have a lot of movement choice and a lot of movement solutions. It turns out that the easiest way to do or think about this sort of at a technical levels is to say, do you have access to your native range of motion, the range of motion that every physician, physical therapist, chiro all agrees on, within five degrees of what you should do. And oftentimes, we never ever look at that, does someone have access? Do they have full hip flexion? Can they bring their knee to their chest? Or do they have to spin their leg out wide and push their knees out and squat in some position because they can’t squat down in any other way. So oftentimes, we fail to appreciate that people will move in a certain way to solve a problem. And that way is fine until it is the only way or until it’s a painful way. Because the way that you’re solving, it doesn’t necessarily hint at the best way to generate force, to the best way to move to maintain your movement choice. So yes, you can run down the field, like a duck. But I guarantee you cannot cut or pivot or jump or extend your hip as powerfully like a duck. You just can’t You can’t plant like a duck in and turn. So what ends up seeing now is that well, the question is, why are you moving that way? And if we come back to that native range of motion, ultimately we’re looking at can you access what your tissues are supposed to do? And do you have control over those things? That’s the technical definition. But ultimately, as Juliet points out, it’s really what is it you want to do? That school of performance of strength conditioning, of gymnastics ,of martial arts has informed us for generations of the best positions for the shoulder, how to train the spine to move and to be stiff, all of that language is there, because human beings have been obsessed with lifting, running, fighting for as long as there have been human beings. We can then map that into formal training or formal range of motion. And suddenly we have a unified field theory. And that’s what becoming a supple leopard was all about.

Clint Murphy  07:48

And one one of the things you talk about that I think it’s very important in the book is this idea that we want to be able to move in these positions for what you describe as the long game and  so so I’d love to have you color in for the reader. What do we mean by the long game and how does using our infrastructure, help us maintain that infrastructure? You know, the mobility prime’s us for life.

Kelly Starrett  08:17

An easy way to think about this is let’s, there are many ways to come at this. Let’s say let’s let’s take a 30,000 foot view, the number one reason people end up in nursing homes, is they can’t get up and down off the ground independently. So what we have here and opening the test, opening the book, The first test is the sit and rise test, just lower cross your legs, lower yourself to the ground and without putting a knee down in that from that crisscross apple sauce position. Without putting a hand down, can you rise back up? Well, a lot of people struggle to even get in that position. A lot of people struggle to get up and down that position. What’s interesting is that position requires not having full range of motion, that requires that position doesn’t ask you to use your ankles in some kind of crazy pistol position. You don’t have to be that strong to do it, because we see children do it all the time. So what’s going on there? Well, what’s going on there for most adults is they don’t have access to this native hip range of motion, subsequently, they can’t get up and down off the ground. And that’s an allegory and an excellent data point to show that you’re going to have reduced movement options, which means things like less power, less force production, less balance, less movement choice, and if you fall on the ground and can’t get up or down off the ground, that’s a problem.

Juliet Starrett  09:31

I would just add to that we when you ask us about the long game, what I think about is we have an obsession with the word durability. We actually don’t love the word longevity. And the reason for that is I think most people probably fall in the same camp as we do, which is we don’t really actually care how long we live. It helps us Especially if you know the last 10 years of our life are in a skilled nursing facility where we’re being cared for by our children. What Kelly and I want is to have durable bodies for as long as we’re alive, what we mean by durable is, you know, (a) the ability to do all the things we want to do physically, whatever that means to us, again, very individual. And (b) that also means a body that’s sort of ready to take the hits, you know, whether that’s a disease or, you know, a really stressful time at work, a divorce, a move, you name it, you know, we’re all going to be taking hits from, you know, either a health standpoint or a stress standpoint, that’s the human condition. And what Kelly and I want to have is a body that can can best buffer that. And so that’s why we love the word durability. And what we want in the long game is to have durable bodies.

Clint Murphy  10:40

So let’s rewind because it’s, before we jump right into the vital signs and the solutions, let’s talk a little bit about the problem that we’re trying to solve for us. So we want durable bodies that are lasting a long time. And I love stats as an accountant, which is what I play in my day job and most of my life. So the I’ll pull out some of your stats. 73% of adults in the US are overweight, 16 million adults have chronic back aches, and then a line that I love, we’re taking off the gloves early, we’ve become fatter, sicker, achier, less fit, are getting more joint replacement surgeries, the list goes on. So before we dive into the solutions, how did we get to where we are today?

Juliet Starrett  11:27

Well, I think it’s a few things. You know, Kelly and I are deeply members of the health and fitness industry, we’ve been working in this industry for almost 25 years. And we think that we have honestly done a terrible job of making information accessible and relatable to a wide ranging group of people. Think what we’ve done in our industry, if you think of the health and fitness, business and health and fitness enthusiast, as a vertical, we’ve done a really good job of making ourselves more optimized within that vertical, you know, we all track our sleep and have, you know, take the right supplements, and we can count our macros. And you know, we’ve just really gotten very sophisticated both as individuals and then we’ve also been able to translate that to sport. And one example I’ll give you is I was a division one rower in college in the 90s. And in many ways that was like the Dark Ages. We had no idea about nutrition, no coaching on recovery, I mean, we were in the era of like, work as hard as you can, you know, until you’re injured, and then you retire. That was the universe we were in. And when, when I look at the advances we’ve made in athletics, it’s been huge. But again, that’s still just serving, like 1% of humanity, right? These are like serious athletes. And then enthusiasts like Kelly, and I, you know, we’ve done a great job of optimizing ourselves. And we really have not cast a wide net, we’ve left people behind. And then I think the second piece is, you know, we’ve taught everyone that health and fitness is something that can be done in a one hour block of your day. And we think that that’s been a big mistake. We’ve told everyone go to your one hour Orange Theory class, get on the peloton for an hour, go to your CrossFit class, whatever it is that you’d like to do, you’ve checked that box of health heroism, and then you basically can just ignore your health for the remaining 23 hours of the day. And what we found is that the practices that we use in this book, actually move the levers for us and for the professional athletes, we work with more than formal exercise. And that in order to feel good in your body and be healthy, in you know, air quotes healthy, you really actually have to care and feed your body all day every day. But simultaneously that can be done in the in the context of a busy time crunch life of two people raising kids. What would you add to that?

Kelly Starrett  13:48

No, let’s go.

Clint Murphy  13:49

And that’s what I loved is each one of the ways that you did it. And so for the listener, what Juliet and Kelly have done is identified 10 vital signs that you will be able to test yourself at home and say how do I perform against where I should be? Or where I may want to be? And then how do I go from where I am to where I want to get to. And what really jumped out at me is (a) super accessible. So everybody ought to be able to use these and say, okay, here’s how I’m gonna move forward and (b) each one of them felt like a book in and of itself. Like there is a lot of meat on this bone, . it’s not light.

Kelly Starrett  14:33

There’s a couple of things here I think that are worth jumping in. One is that the concept of the vital sign is new. People have become sophisticated. They’re measuring their oxygen saturation when they get sick, they have these Oura rings that look at this. Your Apple Watch will tell you really in depth metrics about your heart. Well, what we want to do is say okay, those are really useful, everyone understands the concept of blood pressure. So how do we expand that and create references based on data, based on research, and based on what we know to be the biggest hinges or the smallest hinges that open the biggest doors. And what we’ve done then is to split the book in basically into two categories, we have a set of categories, and vital signs that around, we can think of them as physical behaviors, getting enough sleep, walking enough, really looking at how the food that you’re putting in your body, specifically, micronutrients, protein and fiber, how they impact your tissue quality, because we can’t talk about those things, and not talk about your range of motion. Which means that on the other side, we also are going to look at how well you move in the environment, we’re looking at your hip extension, we’re looking at you squatting. These fundamental shapes and patterns, but putting them into ways that don’t feel technical and don’t feel exercise space. And what ends up happening is you said each one feels like a book unto itself, is that each vital sign creates a category or a sort of a valence of behaviors around it, right, it sort of colonizes a set of behaviors. So for example, if you want to sleep and fall asleep, chances are, you probably need to walk more during the day, to accumulate enough exercise fatigue, or non exercise activity, and sleep pressure that you actually fall asleep. You also start to make decisions about when you’re going to have caffeine, because that late caffeine bump that you’re using to get by is going to impact the quality of your sleep. So there’s a whole host of things we can begin to think about around each one of these behaviors. And also, that illustrates the fact that these behaviors all integrate. And since we are a complex system, most of these behaviors are tightly coupled. So that when you start to lean on one, particularly a blind spot, we tend to see upregulation across the system of behaviors. So impact one, and you’ll start to see your other, you know, vital signs start to improve. And subsequently, what ends up happening is that we create a really simple roadmap with easy to see benchmarks that move away from good and bad to, hey, this should be something maybe you need to focus on. And here are some ways to do that.

Clint Murphy  17:03

And when you look at, so we have 10 Vital Signs you’ve indicated. Some are to do X, some are to do Y. Why these 10? In all of the experience 25 plus years, you both have, how did these 10 become the 10 Vital Signs that made the book?

Juliet Starrett  17:21

Yeah, I would say it’s two things, I think the first thing is, these all come from the work we’ve done with high performers, which I mentioned earlier, you know, athletes, you know, people who are, you know, making their living using their body. So the same basic principles that we recommend those high performers use, turns out to be the same things that Kelly and I as two time crunched, busy working parents who spend our days in front of a computer actually found (a) were possible to fit into our life, and (b) actually made us feel the best. And really, we sort of concluded that these are the basic fundamental health behaviors that everybody needs to do. And then athletes can, you know, take those basic behaviors and continue to further optimize, and enhance above and beyond that, but for the rest of us who just want to feel good in our bodies, be out of pain, be able to do the things we want to do physically and, and have energy to do those things. These are the basic behaviors, but they’re also the basic behaviors, they’re really the basic things that all high performing athletes also need to focus on. And so, you know, we have a ton of very high performing athletes who read this book. And they, you know, they’re definitely checking the box on quite a few of these things. But what they’ve seen is that even they, you know, people who do this for a living actually have blind spots in certain areas of this book. And, you know, simultaneously for you know, the moms and dads that live in our neighborhood, you know, they also are probably doing well in some areas and have blind spots and other areas. So we really just see these as like, these are the fundamental health behaviors that humans, all humans, regardless of whether you’re high performing athlete, or just a parent trying to get through the day and raise your two kids, these are the same behaviors for everybody and the behaviors that we found, we can actually do in that context, and make us feel and perform the best in our lives.

Kelly Starrett  19:25

They’re also objective, and here’s what’s key is that these are data driven, evidence based practices supported by the research, validated by our clinical experience, and they’re not just like sleep more, they’re not just sort of pleasantries, right. They’re not just platitudes. What we’ve given people is really clear delineations of ways that they can objectively measure these behaviors for themselves, and then make choices based on their results so that they can feel the difference and really, Juliet points out that ultimately it comes down to when and where do people have control in their lives. Because what I don’t ever want to do to my busy CEO superstar wife is give her another listicle of things she needs to check off, right so that she can optimize like, she will cut my throat if I do that. So that doesn’t resonate. And notice that what we also get in the bargain here is that we move beyond, I exercise or didn’t exercise, that binary option is what most people think, I didn’t exercise and didn’t have time to exercise, it’s all gone. And what we’ve done is expand this notion of what physical practice means. So that a physical practice includes all of these things. And so if you get to them today, and you haven’t been able to do a heroic thing, get to the gym or swing a kettlebell or breathe through the ice, it’s okay, you’ve actually done a ton of care and feeding and input so that when you are ready to exercise, you’ll be ready, but it hasn’t been a total wash.

Clint Murphy  20:56

And you almost look at it. Kelly, when you say it that way is is if you’re taking care of these, it’s the basics, you’re building a solid base for your pyramid. And if we get the workout in, we’re going up the pyramid and we’re refining we’re getting better, but at least cover the basics and get a solid base of health and mobility to carry you later in life.

Kelly Starrett  21:20

Will also say that the day has come and gone where you can outwork the competition. The workouts that people are doing on Instagram are very sophisticated. And you know, we work with college teams and some of those college teams when I talk to them, I’m like, do you really think you’re out working Stanford? Do you really think that like, you’re better than they are? No one is out working anyone anymore. And so the same behaviors, as you pointed out, can serve us in that direction. But they also serve to allow us to handle higher volumes of work. And as Juliet has kind of hinted at, ultimately, what we’re saying to people is, the durable person can actually handle greater stress, they can handle larger loads, larger stressors, more work and still show up intact. So if we substitute the word exercise, or training or sport with work stress, life stress, job stress, those things are equivalent stressors, the same sets of behaviors that allow me to recover from my 5k more effectively so I can run again, are the same sets of behaviors are gonna allow me to handle a crushing business deadline or a sick family member and still be able to show up for my family.

Clint Murphy  22:29

And something that’s important there, when we talk about stress and people listening, a lot of what we’re going to talk about has to do with our body, and maybe physical. But something that I found super important is you point out that this all begins with our mind and you both want us to think differently about how we approach our daily habits throughout this book, what does that look like for the listener? Who’s hearing this and saying, well, wait a second, what do they mean, it starts with their mind?

Juliet Starrett  22:58

Well, I think what we really want people to do is think about their environment differently. What we see in you know, based on all those statistics, you mentioned earlier, that, you know, people do not have any more willpower or motivation to muster anymore. And, and we don’t either, you know, we also are, you know, if we have cookies on the kitchen counter, we will eat cookies. And what we’ve learned over the years, you know, both individually and working with tons of athletes and owning a commercial gym and working with everyday humans, that the way to actually change, you know, change these behaviors is to change your environment and make it really easy to do the right thing and make it really difficult to do the wrong thing when it comes to your health choices. And we’ve done the same thing. You know, again, we even though we are enthusiast, we love it, we love to exercise and train, and this is what we’ve done, we really still find ourselves, you know, falling into bad patterns if we haven’t constrained our environment and made it really easy to make good decisions. And so I think that’s what we really want people to think about. We want to expand people’s minds to know that health again, doesn’t just happen in the one hour of the gym. And while of course, we’re fans of exercise. That’s not the only place and that there’s so much people can do that happen in two minute, five minute, 10 minute increments throughout their day that can compound almost like compounding interest in finance, to really make a huge difference in how people feel in their bodies.

Clint Murphy  24:31

Let’s dive into vital signs and I’d love to work through all 10 with you, but there’s only so much so much time. And so what I’ve done is I’ve borrowed from my favorite podcaster, Tim Ferriss, one of your friends who likes to choose the ones that are most applicable in his life. So I have done the same. So the first one I’d love to start with you is, you talk about the sit rise test. Kelly, you already you already started to mention that one, in you talk about the fact that the sit rise test has a correlation with how long we’re going to live. So what is that tie in? And what do we want someone to be thinking about as they do this test? And depending on how they do, how can they improve it in their sit rise.

Kelly Starrett  25:41

If you can’t get up and down off the ground, your days are numbered. No, I’m just kidding. And look, what we want, we everyone wants to understand is, you know how I’m moving and living my life is somehow going to impact my future self. I think we all can wrap our heads around that, you know, we told people to stop smoking, not because they’re going to get sick tomorrow, but something would happen in the future. And again, your ability, inability to get up and down off, the test really doesn’t say anything about whether or not you have pain today, or what will happen to you tomorrow. But it’s an indicator of how easily you can access your environment, about your movement choice, it probably says a lot about the kinds of behaviors around movement and some of your soft tissue behaviors that sort of reflect your day to day reality. So all I do is sit in the car, and I sit in front of my computer and I sit on my couch, well, it’s not really using your joints in a big way. And likely, you’re going to see not a lot of range of motion, not a lot of activity and a person who may be struggles with that. Or they may have some real limitations, which means they don’t walk, they don’t begin, they begin sort of engage with a cluster of other health associated behaviors. So ultimately, this is a nice test. Because it’s fun to do, it’s free, it’s easy, and you can ask your whole family about it. And we can pick up some really interesting information. You know, if you come and see me as a physical therapist for lower back pain, we’re going to talk about breathing, and we’re talking about walking. And then we’re also going to talk about your hip range of motion, we’re going to talk about your sleep as well. But that hip range of motion gets lost in that conversation about things that I can control. So one of the things that you pointed out is, what do I do about it, if I struggle this? Well, the first order of magnitude, the first order sort of off operations is exposure. So what we want you to do is start to expose yourself to the things you need to do, not now go down some rabbit hole and read some other book that takes 200 pages to get to the point, it really is, hey, let’s lower yourself to the ground, and try to get back up, hey, that was challenging. Let’s sit on the ground tonight during 30 minutes of TV, and what now what we have is another behavior. So if we’re trying to improve your range of motion, the shape, the first thing your brain needs to do is spend time in that position, you start to value that position, your tissue start to adapt and remote and remodel, you start to have access to those shapes. And then all of a sudden, you’re like, well, sitting cross-legged is getting tiresome. So I sit 90/90, then I log sit, then I pull one of my legs up. And all of a sudden you’ve done a whole bunch of ground sitting based features and behaviors that suddenly start to restore, and reprogram, rewild your hips. Lo and behold, if you do that for a week, you’ll be shocked at how much better you feel, and how much easier that test is. But because you’re already sitting there, we’re like, hey, what’s that, that’s the foam roller. Like you’re already on the ground watching TV, you might as well just roll out your calves since you’re already there. So now we’ve clustered another behavior there. And notice that we put that at the end of the day, we’re not asking you to sit on the ground during your workday, take off your skirt, you know, be the weirdo in the office, that’s not what we’re proposing, we’re saying is that you probably aren’t doing anything of note in the last 10 or 15 or 20 minutes of the day, you’re probably watching TV, because the data supports that you are. So let’s go ahead and start to stack some behaviors in there. And given that those behaviors a chance to percolate. And to really sort of, you know, marinate, you’ll see that over time in a month, this thing that you really struggled with before now becomes effortless, because the gain here is consistency, not these heroic interventions,

Juliet Starrett  29:23

If I could just add a thought experiment to this as well for your listeners. Because, you know, as we said earlier, this test predicts your longevity and for anyone listening to this who isn’t older, they may think, okay, yeah, I’m 35 Like, why do I care? And I’m not going to care now. Why should I care now at my age about whether or not I’m going to live a few years less long, because I can’t get up off and up and down off the ground. But the thought experiment I would like everybody listening to this to do is actually get out a pen and paper and actually try to set up some movement goals for your life. And let me put this into context. You know, everybody listening to this is probably saving in some way or another for retirement. And if they haven’t started doing that they know they should. And simultaneously in our personal lives and our business lives, we often set goals, we set two year, five year, 10 year personal and professional goals. Similarly, if we’re going to run a marathon, we say, okay, in eight weeks time, I’m gonna run a marathon, it’s gonna be on X date, and I’m gonna work backwards, and I’m going to do the training I need to do so that I can survive running a marathon in eight weeks. These are common things we do. So what we suggest everybody do is actually do that with their own movement goals. What is it that you want to do physically with your body now, in two years, five years, 10 years, 25 years and 50 years, because what I can tell you is no one’s movement goal, again, like I mentioned earlier, is to be you know, 85 years old, bedridden in a skilled nursing facility, that is no one’s movement goal, everybody has some kind of movement goal they want to make. And so we would suggest to people, hey, look out in time in the short term, the near term, the you know, the shorter term longer term, and decide what it is that you want to do, Kelly, and I love to ski and mountain bike, we talked about this earlier, we want to be able to ski and mountain bike when we’re 80. That’s one of our movement goals. And so what we’re doing now at 50 years old, is basically training for the marathon of being able to do that when we’re at. And so I would suggest to people, I get it, sometimes it there’s no reason to care about some random piece of data that says, We’re not going to live long, because we’re going to fall down. But everybody has movement goals, and I suggest you write them down and start working backwards. And you know, what I can say is doing and taking care for the vital signs in this book will get people a long way towards meeting those movement goals, whatever they’re both now and in the future.

Kelly Starrett  31:49

And if you’re an athlete, today, these things will improve your performance. It’s the same coin.

Clint Murphy  31:55

One of the things that you talked about there, and it definitely gets in the way of the future is the lower back pain. And so I’m one of those chronic people, tends to only come out on vacation, when my wife uses one of those scales to make sure she fits every ounce  into the luggage. But so I know I sit in a chair too much at work, I always forget until two or three days after the back pain, hey, wait, usually if I stretch out my hamstrings, this pain goes away. So what is it about sitting in the chairs all day that people really have to be thinking about? If you could each choose one mobilization for people who sit in chairs at the office, to think about and to be practicing, what would you throw at them?

Juliet Starrett  32:44

So the first of all three?

Kelly Starrett  32:47

First of all, sitting isn’t bed, and standing isn’t better, moving is best. And what we see is that, you know, you sat in a chair for a long time as a kid until it started to change how you interact with your environment. So the real question here is, how is my behavior, what are the things I’m doing every day impacting my ability to move freely, so it’s not the sitting, it’s me spending a lot of time in my body adapting to this, this response. If gave you a deep fried Twinkie every day for a year, I guarantee you, we’d see some changes from that, right. And the idea is, is similar. And one of the ways that we can wrap our heads around this is this notion of something we call session cost. So a big brutal training session or a competition. If I measure you the next day, I’m going to see decreased range of motion, I’m going to see decreased force production, you won’t be very fired up, you’re going to be super sore, we can actually measure that objectively, with some you know, whatever you want to do, look at your wattage, look at your pounds, so your range of motion. But the ultimately the session cost tells me about the impact of the behavior choice I had on my readiness today. And it’s an easy way of wrapping your head around that. And I think anyone who’s ever done a big effort, can next day is like whoa, that was a big effort. That is session cost. So all of the behaviors were engaged in, in this book are ultimately about reducing session cost, so that you can work harder, you can work more. But now if we just pan back, take one different lens view on it. Your chronic sitting is impacting your ability to move in your environment, the session cost of the behavior choices, probably mean that you’re going to struggle with something that looks like the couch stretch, you’re going to struggle with taking a big breath in your upper back or putting your arms over your head. We know specifically because we’ve watched millions of people do this, that when you sit all the time, it starts to not mean automatically you’re gonna have back pain. It will impact your ability to express your normal physiology, to lean on that inherent native infrastructure as you said, And so suddenly, what you can see is well what are the set of behaviors that I need to engage with that allow me to minimize the session cost of my lifestyle. And that is super simple. So you figure out, hey, if I just mobilize my hamstrings a little bit, this Bob’s your uncle, it’s a piece of cake. Well, we could also start to say there are definitely some movement behaviors that helped mitigate the session cost of all this prolonged sitting. Like I said, the first one I’ll choose is couch stretch, what would you choose J,

Juliet Starrett  35:26

I would also choose couch stretch. And, you know, thank you for teeing Kelly up for that, because his favorite subject is hip extension. And we know really, it’s he actually talks about hip, hip extension at the dinner table. So just so you know, a little insight into what’s going on in our household. But Kelly is obsessed with hip extension, but really, you know, hip, if, that means being in a lunge position, being in a lunge position, but the hip extension is sort of the opposite of the way your hip is when you’re sitting. So, you know, again, we always say, if you want to, if you practice a position, which a lot of us are practicing sitting all day long, then you want to spend a little time doing the opposite things. So you want to spend a little time actually practicing your hip extension. And one of the best ways we know to do that is to do something called the couch test or couch stretch.

Kelly Starrett  36:14

I would just say, add, it’s easy to put in these isometrics. During the day, just get into a lunge position, squeeze your butt go as deep as you can take some breaths there, what you’ll see is, some of the changes in the body are structural, you become stiffer, that actually happens, that’s well documented, your body will not react, but also your brain says, Hey, we’re not in that position. Let’s not value that position. Let’s shut our options off from that position. So you know, as Juliet saying, you know, ultimately, exposure to those shapes can help people untangle very complex phenomenon, your back hurts. Well, what do I begin to do with that? Do I, you know, start to perseverate and a slipped disc, that’s not a thing, by the way. And then we go on and on and on, and you get an MRI do your back hurts because you haven’t moved, your hips aren’t doing what they’re supposed to do, you haven’t taken a big breath in like three months, suddenly, we can start to apply some of these vital signs. And you might make really surprising connections in your brain about why something happens, you may not even know why. But chasing the vital sign can help restore your function. And lo and behold, that’s usually enough to also make you feel better.

Clint Murphy  37:27

So one of the things that I had noticed, and I appreciated that that was both your answers on that one was, I don’t mind being the quirky guy at work, Kelly. So I will during meetings, I just get up in a meeting. You know, with a leadership team meeting, there’s a dozen of us and I just get up and I do a couch stretch on my chair, I just lift my leg up behind him and stand up in the meeting and kind of listen and pay attention while stretching it out. But and Juliet, you teed this one up perfectly, because what I was gonna say was, I love how you wrote that, asking you both what’s your favorite mobilization is like asking someone to pick a favorite kid. But then you did offer up hip mobilization. So it makes sense to me, given the issues I’ve had with it over time and what I see but why is that one, the one that you’re so obsessed with, and that our listeners need to be keying in on.  Is sitting the big problem that we’re countering when we’re when we’re working on this?

Juliet Starrett  38:30

I would answer that I think that that mobilization or test, the couch test, test is the antidote to our modern way of living, which does involve a lot of sitting. What do you say? What would you say?

Kelly Starrett  38:45

I would say that which one of your body parts isn’t important to you, but that with Juliet said that the all of the behaviors that are available to us, we ended up seeing correlation between this loss of position, that it’s very common in sort of our modern self. So you know, ultimately, we like this idea. Well, we could even pan back again, let’s slap on a different filter on here. You know, ultimately, human beings used to get up and down off the ground a lot. We used a toilet on the ground, cook on the ground, hanging on the ground, fire. We worked on the ground. And that’s not hyperbole, that’s just a couple 100 years ago,

Juliet Starrett  39:25

There’s quite a few cultures who still do that

Kelly Starrett  39:28

And ask, Well, what did human beings do back then? And I’m not trying to pine for the Paleolithic era. I like modern conveniences like Nitro Cold Brew coffee, that’s pretty cool. But what I’ll say is we used to get up and then off the ground, we used to carry stuff around and move, carried resources around, we carried animals and things around, just human beings have been carrying things and getting them down off the ground and we probably did a lot of throwing. So ultimately, those basics ended up being mean, sort of the key to understanding some of our key physiologic needs. Look, you can’t make the case that human beings do not need sunlight on their bodies like that is a you know, vitamin D, you know, Huberman says set your circadian rhythm. Ultimately, what you’ll start to see is even the suggestion of us trying to hit our movement minimums, right, for walking and non exercise activity, that’s not just about being fit and burning calories, although that’s nice. Walking is the way that we decongest our bodies, our lymphatic systems, which are the sewage systems of the body, right, they handle between three and four liters of lymphatic fluid every day. And in that lymph, are all the broken down proteins, all the old cells, kind of torn down tissues that your body’s constantly making remodeling, anything that’s too big to go into the circulatory system goes out through the lymphatic system, it’s literally the sewage system of your body. So if you’ve ever seen a gross drain in standing water, that’s your ankles. When you have cankles, when you fly on a big airplane, that’s just sewage backing up in your ankles. But it turns out that system is bootstrapped into your movement system. So when you contract your muscles, the muscles squeeze the lymphatic system. So if you don’t engage in this 6 to 8000 steps a day, you actually can’t move the waste through your body as effectively as if you do. And so once again, what you start to see is, oh, movement is native to the human experience. If I don’t move, that is actually going against my nature.

Juliet Starrett  41:36

I just wanted to also mention since we started this with you talking about how you’re prone to back pain. And you know, it comes up in certain situations. But you know, one of the ways we want we’re hoping and back to your question about the brain and how we want people to think differently. One of the ways we want people to think differently as they read this book, is to really rethink the concept of the concept of pain. And our view is that pain is not always a medical problem. And this is something we see day in day out, because we’re the go to people, you know, when when, you know, our friends and neighbors and families and we used to own a physical therapy clinic, right. And so we have, we’ve seen it all in terms of people managing pain injury, of course, there there is times when a medical professional is needed. But we often see that people just plain don’t think about and don’t have the tools to just noodle a little bit on their body and work on their range of motion and can actually make massive difference in their sort of ongoing nagging pain and injuries. And, you know, you’ve obviously figured out that if you stretch your hamstrings and do the calf stretch in the back of the meeting, that’s going to make a huge difference in terms of your own back pain. We really want people to start thinking that way. You know, we’ve struggled over the years with working with people who don’t actually care to do some care and feeding of their body until they get injured. And then you know, they of course, become evangelists of doing it. But what we want people to think about is that pain and you know, is not always a medical problem. And you don’t always have to go see six doctors and get 27 pictures in order to just actually put a little bit of input into your body while you’re watching Netflix in front of your couch you know at home on a weeknight,

Kelly Starrett  43:19

I’d go further and say pain is a request for change and in our athletic communities. If I dropped into someone’s brain in the middle of a competition, I would perish from the discomfort it would be so Juliet is a, was a state champion rower and rower at CAL. So if I dropped into the middle of a 2k, and just experienced the hate that was circulating in her body, I would literally be like this is hell, I’m perishing. I’m out. So we want people to understand that this discomfort while highly subjective, and of course, it’s okay to talk to your physician. What we also want people to know is that, you know, you have a lot of agency and control over these systems. In our athletic populations, we use pain as another diagnostic tool, just like loss of performance. Oh, I see that you sucked on the bike today. What’s that about? Well, I smashed three litres of beer with my friends last night and I ate 16 pizzas and I didn’t sleep. And we’re like, oh, no wonder you sucked on the bike today. Right? That loss of performance? Why does your knee hurt? I haven’t slept, I’m highly stressed, I haven’t moved. I haven’t fueled. Suddenly we have a whole lot of things in agency where I can feed back, we haven’t even talked about you, do have full range of motion or not. So one of the things we’re trying to do in this book is also give people a counter narrative where they can engage in very safe, very actionable behavior in their home to make themselves feel better. And that is a total disservice that we’ve told everyone. Pain is above your paygrade. What a bunch of horse crap that is. And what we did was we inadvertently sent people out to go find bourbon, THC, ibuprofen, Adderall, you know anything that made themselves feel better they engaged with except for the basics.

Clint Murphy  45:05

Walking, we’re gonna we’re gonna go to that one next, it actually does, like, solve a lot of our problems.

Kelly Starrett  45:15

It probably does, you know, we, if you aren’t sleeping, you aren’t going to change your body composition, you’re not going to gain muscle, you’re not going to have good looking skin, you’re not going to learn a new skill, your body isn’t going to grow if you’re a teenager.

Juliet Starrett  45:29

You’re going to struggle to recover from injury or surgery.


Kelly Starrett  45:32

You’re going to have a hard time with chronic persistent pain. So it seems to me that the magic number here is eight hours of sleep, not seven hours of sleep, eight hours of sleep, eight and above, things start to change, but so much, so many times we’re presented with dirty data to the point where Juliet and I don’t believe you, can you show us your sleep tracker, we just don’t think that this is a like you don’t have a running problem, you have an environment problem. So when we begin to sort out and reregulate base function for people, lo and behold, their brain stopped being as twitchy. Their tissues stopped being so dramatic, and they can handle higher loads and feel better. But also, you still need your range of motion. So we can talk about both sides simultaneously, top down bottom up.

Clint Murphy  46:16

And the we’re going to tackle both of those because they’re so fundamental. The other thing I don’t want to forget because you talked about pain, and I thought it was really important, not, not enough people think about the idea of the upstream downstream. And I’ve probably had achilles issues for the last dozen years, let’s say since I first started Ironman training, every physiotherapist I’ve ever been to, and said, no, you don’t have achilles issues like you have weak glutes and it’s manifesting in your achilles. So how does this concept of upstream downstream and hey, the pain is telling the story, but it’s not necessarily what you think, it could be somewhere else in your body that’s broken down. And when we fix that we’re going to fix the chain, if you will.

Juliet Starrett  47:02

Well, I would just like to say that if people take nothing from this entire podcast. This upstream and downstream concept is really significant. I mean, the amount of, you know, pain and, you know, ongoing nagging issues, we’ve been able to help people resolve on their living room floors on their own with it sort of understanding the upstream, upstream downstream idea.

Kelly Starrett  47:23

Wait, let’s explain this. Are you saying that if my quads are stiff or have trigger points, my knee can hurt. Oh, yes. Are you saying thatif my hamstrings are stiff, my knee can hurt. Yes, those are upstream, right? Yes. What’s downstream of my knee? Your calves. Weird. So you’re saying if I have tight restricted calves, it can cause knee pain? Yes. Okay, there you go, people, you don’t even need to know the name of the muscles, you just go above and below the thing that hurts.

Juliet Starrett  47:44

But you know, the the human body is one of the most complex things in the known universe, and everything, it turns out that it’s also a system, and that everything is connected. And so you know, especially when people are dealing with joint pain, you know, the first order of business is to say, okay, my hip is bothering me or my knees bothering me, let’s take a look at upstream and downstream. And fortunately, the things that you can do to sort of, you know, work upstream and downstream are actually really safe. So, you know, you can roll your quads or roll your calves on a foam roller a ball or you can do some basic hip mobilizations. And these things are really safe to do, and can really make a big difference in in that pain. And it’s so simple.

Kelly Starrett  48:26

And let me give you a rationale for your calf, ready? You already told me what happened. So you’re saying I have this problem in my achilles, you’ve tried 17 different shoes. But that didn’t solve the problem. You tried a different Gu gel that didn’t solve the problem, you’ve explained to your family you need a new Tri bike, and that didn’t solve the problem. So it turns out, one of the things you said was, hey, I have engaged in certain behavior that’s sitting a lot. And sometimes it doesn’t feel very good. And then someone also said, hey, I have weak glutes or there’s nothing weak about your body, let’s be clear. But one of the things that happens is if you aren’t effective at wait for it, extending your hip, or if you don’t have hip extension access, you know what gets inhibited in that system.

Juliet Starrett  49:06

See what I mean, Clint.  It all comes back to hip

Kelly Starrett  49:12

What gets inhibited in that system. You get into the couch stretch, and if you can’t squeeze your butt like it’s your job, that is the problem. And what ends up happening is your hamstrings end up you doing the job of your glutes and to flex the lower leg. So you have this overstressed hamstring, which changes the tension and fascia in your calf and wait for it, changes your entire stride. Why? Because you’re over striding because you can’t put your leg out behind you. And then because you can’t put your leg out behind you wait for it people, you end up turning your leg out and then striking with an open position so you’re not even foot isn’t even straight anymore contacts the ground. All because you didn’t do the couch stretch.

Clint Murphy  49:49

I mean, he’s not wrong. I have 2 mobility apps on my phone. And then I do the human, I’m like, oh, this is bothering me. And so then when I’m doing my workouts, so I’ve got a home gym right behind us here. When I’m when I’m doing my workouts, I’ll often do the mobility exercises between sets. Yeah, as my, this is the way, right. And when I’m doing that, it tells me hey, your problem area is largely your, your hips. And so it’s a lot of lunging. It’s a lot of pigeon. And when I’m doing it consistently, never even notice my achilles. And what do I do, because I don’t notice the achilles pain, I stopped doing the mobility.  Problem solved.

Kelly Starrett  50:36

Your anthropometry based on your history, like it’s okay, it’s that is a reasonable thing. What is an unreasonable thing is to just wait around or stop doing the thing you love, hoping that it just gets better on its own, that’s just magical thinking. Instead, you’re like, Oh, I know, the three or four things that I do for a couple days to banish this. And then I’m ahead of it. And then I go on with the rest of my life, that is a reasonable thing, to give people solutions to say, lean into this, so that now you’re on your run, you’re like, oh, my Achilles is barking, I know what I need to do, I’m behind, that becomes a lagging indicator for your body, and one that you can quickly identify, that’s called pattern recognition. That is the whole game, the whole game is for us to know ourselves through sport, but to identify that discomfort or that stiffness, or that tightness as our own individual metric of how we’re doing, and that, that you know what to do to banish that or make you feel better, or attenuated. That is really what we’re trying to do here with people.

Juliet Starrett  51:36

You also pointed out something that I think is so important, and we’ve been trying to emphasize in this book, and hope we did a good job is that you just figured out a time in your life, where you could sneak in mobility work. And you know, we are fans of doing it, as we’ve mentioned before, in front of the TV, and sitting on the floor in front of our couch, you know, because we like to chill in front of the TV at night. We know a lot of people do, that works for us and for our lifestyle. But you know, our view is nobody listening to this needs to go out and take a one hour mobility class and tack that on on top of the other things they’re busy doing and the training they’re trying to do. You’ve just got to figure out ways to sneak it in, you can really make a huge difference in these little one to 5-10 minute, you know, moments where you just spend a little time paying attention to your body, putting some input into the body, that you know, we need to be able to use now and into the future.

Kelly Starrett  52:33

I’d like to say, this is why you know, yoga is not a perfect solution. I have to go do an hour go to an hour yoga class, how many, or get a massage? How often are you going to do that? We want to be hyperlocal, we want to respect people’s time and understand we trust that you’ll figure out where to put this in. Instead of creating this sort of, you know, the artifice of I go do this other thing. You know, it’s like saying, oh, my calves are tight. Let me go to a spin class for an hour and hope that magically solves it. That’s crazy. That’s exactly what we’re doing when we go to yoga.

Clint Murphy  53:05

I’m not going to pick on the Yoga people because they may have a revolt, but I understand what you’re saying.

Kelly Starrett  53:14

We are super down with yoga.

Juliet Starrett  53:16

No, we love yoga, but we’re just saying, you know, if you’re someone who likes to train in different ways besides Yoga, you can and it’s yeah, I’ve been told by people, okay, well, you’ve got to stretch and work on your flexibility. And you’re like, okay, great, but I can’t go to that class on top of my triathlon training or whatever else.

Kelly Starrett  53:32

But if Yoga is a movement, practice, pretty great move in practice, it’s like me saying to you, oh, your knee hurts, go to CrossFit. Like, you’re going to use the your range of motion, right? We’re gonna get in there. It’s just, it’s a, it’s a poor argument. However, we should look at this book. And I suggest that you should look at yoga as a third party validation of your current training system. So if you have the secret squirrel program, then you’re going to ace all of these, you’ll get 10 out of 10 on everything, if you’re crushing it. If you go to a yoga class, and you’re having a hard time getting into downward dog, you’re having a hard time standing on one leg. Holy crap, Yoga should be easy. You’re not going to be the best Yogi in the class. But you should be a competent yogi, if the things you’re doing are maintaining your range of motion. I think that’s what’s so crucial. Yoga doesn’t ask us to have a super natural range of motion. So when people go to yoga and get their butt kicked, we’re like, dude, what have you been doing with yourself? Yoga is just native range of motion, but done slowly with some breathing, like, pump the brakes. If you’re getting your ass kicked in yoga, maybe it’s the peloton that’s not serving you as well as you think.

Juliet Starrett  54:38

And I think this just goes back to the point I was making earlier, though, about this sort of fallacy of the one hour class. I mean, most people we know at the most have one hour where they can eat and they have to choose. They can either exercise or go to yoga, or do something. Most people can figure out a way in a time crunch life to have this sort of one hour block where they can get something done. But what we find as you know, people either choose that they’re going to go to CrossFit six times, or they’re only going to go to yoga. But most people don’t have time to both have a, you know, a really deep training program where they’re getting some cardio and lifting weights and doing yoga, because most people don’t have a two full hours to dedicate into their day. And so that’s one of the reasons we haven’t continued a mobility practice, just like the one you’re talking about. Because you really can actually make some significant difference in your body in these little ways. I mean, you know, seriously, you’re doing a mobility practice by doing the couch stretch while you’re at at a meeting with your staff.

Kelly Starrett  55:32

And let me blow your mind for a second. Imagine you went to yoga, and you got into a position and you struggled with it. And then you mobilized and you came back and use that position. That’s actually how some of the best Yogi’s work, what do you think I Angara was doing with all those blocks and straps, he wasn’t messing around. He was saying, you can’t even get into the shape, we better figure out ways to get you into the shape and modify the shape. Here’s a block, here’s a strap. So you know, ultimately, what you’re doing is the same thing as going to yoga class, struggling with downward dog, mobilizing your hamstrings and then getting downward dog and being crushing it. That’s what we want to do.

Clint Murphy  56:04

Well, even even even yoga. I mean, if we if we take a step back, the yogi’s first started doing yoga because they wanted people to meditate and they realize, hey, you can’t get in the positions to maintain your meditation long enough for it to be effective. So we have to, we have to mobilize your body in these ways, so that we can get you to sit in a lotus or whatever have you they had them do for gosh, how long, for the yogi’s probably the entire day, but like a VIP Asana 10 hour sit, but they’re saying, hey, we need to mobilize you so you can do that sit. So I mean, we’re going way back in there doing mobilizations way back then. But let’s shift direction to a new vital signs. So on this one, I’ll give you a little bit of a long question, and then just let you run with it. I’ll digress a little bit. You talked about 2-5-10 year plans, my wife and I were starting to map out where homebase is going to be when the kids are out of school and I’ve pivoted away from working full time to a bit of a different life that we’ve mapped out. And every city we we seem to try especially in the US, lacks walkability. With which is a major thing for us, we want to get outside our door and walk the city, walk our neighborhood, and we do see it a fair amount in in Europe, and one of the things you guys talked about that I found pretty crazy was taking more, 4000 steps per day, if we establish that as our baseline. If we take 8000, it decreases our risk of death from all causes by 51%. If we take 12,000, it decreases it by 65%. And then you pointed out that societies like Japan and Australia, I think it was 11,000 and 9,000 on average for those two cities. They have a lot lower obesity than we do in the US now. Maybe maybe other things other than just the walking. But why? Why is that walking so important and why in North America, are we so low on our walking? And how can we how can we get more of that into our lives?

Juliet Starrett  58:32

Well, this is our favorite subject, because we are evangelists of walking, and we’re trying to make walking sexy on the internet, which is challenging, but we are huge fans of it. But I’ll start with the obesity point you made, you know, walking is what’s known as technically as non exercise activity. You know, scientists call it neat or non exercise activity thermogenesis. And that’s just all of the movement we get in our day, that sort of outside of formal exercise. So it can be walking, gardening, cooking, you know, any kind of my micro movement, even fidgeting while you’re standing at a desk or working, even that counts as non exercise activity. But what the research is starting to show is that, that it’s actually not the formal exercise, but it’s the amount of non exercise activity we’re getting that can actually make the biggest difference over our lifetime in whether or not we struggle with our weight. And so, you know, I think that’s what we mentioned earlier, I mentioned earlier talking about the other 23 hours of the day, again, huge fans of exercise, we think people should be doing it. I think you know, unless people are under a rock they know they should be and they know the reasons they should for cardiovascular health and strength and agility and all those other things. But again, because we’ve told people that they have checked the box of health, if they exercise for one hour a day, we find people are just plain not moving at all for the other 23 hours a day and and that really could be the difference between you know, having a life where you struggle with your weight and a life where you don’t. And you know, there’s some other really epic things that we love about walking, and one of those is human connection. And, you know, we found, for example, that we have a 20 minute walk to the end of our block and back, we do it almost every night. It’s one of the ways that we can connect with one another and sort of check in and see how our day was and what’s working and what’s not working. We don’t take our phones, you know, we actually have occasion interact with our neighbors. So we, you know, blasphemy blasphemy, we get to know our community, we connect with one another, you know, we love to walk and hike in our neighborhood. And so we spend a lot of time doing that. It’s just one of the ways that we can really connect with people outside of technology. You know, we’re also huge fans of rucking, you know, Kelly mentioned that, you know, human beings are designed to carry load, and that it’s something that we used to do, you know, we’re always carrying resources. So we often put on heavy backpack and walk around that way. But you know, there. And then just to continue to add things, Kelly talked a bit about the lymphatic system. So for anyone who’s listening to this, who likes to train and exercise, walking is the best way to recover from whatever athletic activity are doing, you know, whether it’s triathlon, training, or CrossFitt, you name it, you know, if you want to avoid getting cankles, and really get the sewage out of your body, the best way to do that is walking. And I’ll let Kelly talk a little bit about how we fit it into our lives.

Kelly Starrett  1:01:19

Yeah, ultimately, the thing that we get wrong is if I say, hey, you need 10,000 steps, because some Japanese pedometer said that that was the magic auspicious number, it seems overwhelming, versus hey, what does this sort of consistent movement it look like? So Jill and I are talking to you from a standing desk, we’re both perching right now, which means we’re leaning against the stool, but we have our both feet on the ground. So we’re not really sitting. That’s another example of moving, right, it doesn’t mean necessarily count toward steps. But the idea is it’s still non exercise exercise activity. And so the step is really the allegory for where in my life can I get more movement in, and that may be perching for a little while that may be, you know, choosing to walk a little bit differently, it may be just choosing to make these sort of, hey, I’m just going to commit to a 10 minute walk after every meal in my day. I’m gonna see if I can take this meeting walking, I’m gonna see if I can walk to the corner grocery store. And suddenly, what you see is that it all aggregates and notice that in the book, we really shoot for that 8000 steps. And we think if you’re getting the best benefits from, you know, the lion’s share, 50% of the you know, reduction in all causes of mortality from walking six 8000 steps, that’s a number that actually most people can wrap their heads around. But we also want people to appreciate that we are very keen on being able to scale up and scale down. And scaling up in this situation is actually one of the ways that we found that one of our elite military groups we work with in the army, solve health related sleep problems with our warfighters, they started prescribing 15,000 steps. And it turned out a lot of those warfighters actually accumulated enough non exercise activity, fatigue, sleep pressure, they actually fell asleep. So your mileage may vary. And more importantly, it’s really looking at the trend in the average, it’s not that I walked 20,000 steps this weekend, and then I didn’t, I was inactive. We noticed that when we put trackers on our kids in elementary school on rainy days, they walked between 2 and 3000 steps. So all the behaviors that we’re talking about here, think about them for your own health than say, do my children eat enough fruits and vegetables, do my children walk and move their bodies, do my children get the minimum eight hours of sleep required for growing body. And what you’re going to be shocked at is that all of these behaviors can scale backwards through time and upwards through time. So we’re not just trying to solve for risk in the elderly here, we’re trying to help put inputs for our children that will kind of ride for decades and decades and decades for compounding interest.

Juliet Starrett  1:03:53

So I would also say that back to my ongoing point that everything doesn’t need to be done in an hour, it is totally doable to accumulate 8000 steps for most people in 5-10 minute increments, just with a little bit of intention. And with you know, thinking about your environment differently, you know, this is just deciding you’re going to park farther away, or, you know, if you have a meeting that doesn’t require you to be on video, but on Zoom, put in your headphones and take a walking meeting. You know, we’ve measured that 20 minute walk in our neighborhood that we take at night, it’s 1700 steps. And so there’s little teeny ways that you can actually you actually can accumulate 8000 steps pretty reasonably in a day with just a little bit of thought and intention toward it. And, you know, so we really think it’s doable, and that’s why we like the 8000 step number, you know, 10,000 steps for some reason feels unattainable to people and now they often resort to that, well, I can’t do it. So I’m not going to do anything mentality. And you know, again, there’s no point in my days except for maybe on weekends if I’m actively going for a hike. There’s no point where I’m like, Okay, I’m going out now to go for walk and I’m gonna walk for an hour, I’m able to accumulate those steps, you know, doing some of it just my normal daily activities of cooking and taking care of my kids and, you know, doing whatever I’m doing around my house. And then the rest of it, just with these light intentions throughout the day and 5-10-20 minute blocks,

Kelly Starrett  1:05:16

Something you mentioned, you know, as you’re looking at where you want to settle, you know, if we look at the blue zones, these places where people are living to be a long age, ultimately, they aren’t in an environment where they’re going to the gym, they’re not doing they’re not driving somewhere, and then go into a walking class, all of their movement, and all these behaviors are built into how they live day to day. So again, as Juliet has pointed out, this isn’t one more decision, you just have to walk to the grocery store, because that’s how you get to the grocery store, you have to eat more fruits and vegetables, because that’s what you have accessible, you end up having better social interactions, because you live in a neighborhood where people walk. And so you can start to see how all of these things integrate. Look, one of the best pro tips, if you’re listening to this, you’re still listening to this. And you know, work in a high performance situation, it is a competitive advantage to sit down and eat with your teammates, at least once a week, we see that the best athletes on the planet, and the best teams on the planet share at least one meal a day. And actually, a lot of them share two or three meals a day. And it turns out well, that’s why I didn’t think about the ancillary benefits of just eating with people. But one of the reasons that we are a society is that we connect over food. And so you know, what we suddenly realize is one of the reasons we’re so expansive. And so sort of food positive around fruits and vegetables and proteins is that it means that you don’t have to have some strange eating behavior every night for your weird three almond mom diet, you get to go ahead and hang out with your kids and eat fruits and vegetables and meats and proteins. Do the same thing with your with your workgroup. And you’ll see that, again, all of these things really integrate into making us a systematic whole.

Juliet Starrett  1:07:04

And, you know, I think you’re right about the, you know, find it, excuse me, I think you’re right about the fact that it is difficult to find, you know, cities in the US that are ultimately very walkable. And one story for you, Kelly actually grew up in Europe, in southern Germany, and we have traveled there quite a bit with our kids and are lucky enough to have been there. But one thing that happens to me when I go there is I typically am a bit off the rails from a dietary standpoint, you know, I drink, I don’t really drink beer at home. But when I’m in Germany, I drink beer, and I tend to eat a lot of brown food. And, you know, we traveled in Italy, and I had pizza for breakfast and gelato for lunch. And, you know, I definitely am not as conscientious about my diet when I’m on vacation and traveling in Europe. But the thing I noticed is I actually come back and I usually have actually lost two or three pounds. And the difference there again, I’m not exercising because I’m on vacation. I’m not going to the gym, but I’m just moving a lot throughout my day 20 -25,000 because the cities in the environment are set up for that, you know, and one of the things I’ll tell you is we used to live in the city of San Francisco and we now live in a suburb and one really important thing to us when we moved is we actually want to have a store within walking distance of our house and it was a big factor in where we chose our own house. Because after living in a walkable city like San Francisco, we didn’t want to find ourselves in the suburbs having to get in the car every time we wanted a gallon of milk. And just that little detail alone has made a huge difference in how much we move.

Clint Murphy  1:08:31

Well Juliet, I couldn’t help it while you were talking earlier. I was thinking every time I’ve been to Europe with my wife. Exactly what you say I eat way more food than I do here, you go for tasting menus at a nice restaurant. And every time I come home I expect to stand on the scale and be up five plus pounds and I’m usually down five. And my wife loves to walk like to, Kelly like 20,000 steps not outside the ordinary. You know 15 to 20 kilometers a day,walking tours mixed with like we’ve never rented a car when we’ve been to Europe or Asia. Every trip I’ve gone down to the US, it’s first thing we have to do get to the airport, get a car and drive to the location. The other thing that jumped out at me there and I know it’s not from the book, but Kelly when you mentioned the sports and the meals together. When I think about I coach my youngest son in hockey and whenever you have that first out of city tournament, where you go away, you play four or five games over the weekend. The kid’s best memory of the trip is (a) the pool in the hotel and the mini hockey in the amenities room, but you come back from that tournament. And every team I’ve been with, you come back and the team that comes home is completely different than the team that went on the road trip. If I want to replicate that not only do that with the tournament, but try to get my team together for a meal once a week together to say, hey, we’re going to have a meal, we’re going to talk about, talk about the upcoming week, what’s going on and just have some fun together.

Kelly Starrett  1:10:23

Well, how about this? It’s an experiment, we know what best practice looks like, we have the data and experience. Even if it’s a subjective empirical experience, it’s anecdotal, but it’s serial anecdotalism. So we have 1000s of data points, we know that human beings have been eating food together, it’s probably research on it somewhere. But what I would say is, go ahead and test it, see how it feels for your own body. You know, what’s amazing about this book is with vital signs, you might find that you had a significant change in the culture and how you all related just by a single meal, you have it on a weekend. But then we start to say, well, what’s the minimum dose here? Is it practicable for me to have, do I have to have three meals a week with my with my team, that’s not going to happen. But what you’ll find is, the human brain is only a brain if it’s around other brains, period. And so many of the behaviors we’re talking about are about maintaining your independence and maintaining your ability to go interact with other people and play with other people, interact and maintain your your independence, so you can hang out with your family. I have spent enough time in hospitals to see people get sick or fracture a hip, where I came home and was like Juliet, we’re not doing that, because the world gets very, very small and people get very lonely. What happened in when we ran the COVID experiment she’s in, you know, in well, we saw we isolated people, and we saw depression go through the roof. And it turned out looking at a screen was not the same thing as being with another human being. So you know, Juliet and I are backing in to some of these essential behaviors around creating a civil society. But it’s all done under the guise of things like eat food, let’s go ahead and walk and say hi to your neighbors, let’s get some sun on your body. Let’s, I mean, these are the things that we think are most important. But we’re not going to lead with them, we see them as ancillary benefits.

Clint Murphy  1:12:13

Let’s jump to that one right there that you said, because we talked about foods. So we already talked earlier, about obesity and challenges we’re seeing there, and what I loved about how you approach food was not to say, here’s what not to eat, or here’s what diet to do. It was, hey, eat more fruits and vegetables, you know, here’s an 800 gram challenge, and eat more protein. And here’s a rough guideline for how much protein to eat. Can you share with the listeners what is this 800 gram challenge and what’s the protein boost? Like, what are what are some of the things you want them to add to their diet?

Juliet Starrett  1:12:51

Yeah, and thank you for picking up on that. I think you know, that, that is one of the things we love about this style of eating is that it’s and for us and for many people who will experience this as the first time in their life, a so called diet actually feels expansive, and not restrictive. You know, Kelly and I have been in the fitness business for so long. And before that, you know, I was following the fat free diet. And, you know, we’ve done it all we’ve done paleo and, and the zone and you know, you name it, we’ve we’ve tried it all, experienced at all. And, you know, in every single year, we’re survivors, the diet wars, and you know, in every single case, there was something that was restricted. And so what we love about the 800 gram challenge, and I want to give credit where credit was due is it was developed by our friend EC Synkowski of a company called Optimize Me Nutrition. And, you know, she based the 800 grams on a study that showed that, you know, that is the base number, you need to really get all the benefits of the micronutrients and the fiber and fruits and vegetables. And the other key thing that I think is so critical and you know, again, as being survivors of the diet wars, is that, you know, we told people a lot of really stupid things that like bananas and fruit were bad for you. And that that was sugar and that you shouldn’t eat those things. And, you know, that’s, that’s, to my mind, really, one of the biggest disservices we did to people in this sort of resilience of food is to demonize certain foods, I mean, demonize really any food, but especially demonize something like a banana or fruit. You know, the way the 800 gram challenge is, the way it works is that you know we challenge people to eat 800 grams of fruits or vegetables in a day. And that can be any fruits or vegetables, look four like medium to large size apples is 800 grams. So if you want to eat four apples in a day, knock yourself out, like go for it. You know, the thing Kelly likes to point out is an entire pound of cherries is 230 calories. So you know fruit is not the reason that we’re struggling with obesity as a larger community that’s not the problem. And again, going back to you know what you were talking about earlier with community mean food is the way that we commune as humans. And I think one of the challenges with all of these diets that have come out again, being so restrictive is that it’s made people weird and not be able to eat and not be able to go out with friends for dinner.

Kelly Starrett  1:15:07

I’m gonna bring my chicken breast.

Juliet Starrett  1:15:09

They’re gonna bring their own their own little bag of rice in a Ziploc bag to their dinner out with their friends, right? Like, we’ve done a lot of weird things. And if you act weird around food, it disconnects you from your community, right. And so again, it’s like.

Kelly Starrett  1:15:22

Or it doesn’t respect your cultural heritage or the way your family eats. Look, it’s it’s bananas.

Juliet Starrett  1:15:27

So one of my big influences is Kate Shanahan, who wrote this book that I love called Deep Nutrition, and she studied food culture around the world. And turns out that every single culture does the exact same things with food, you know, people eat meat on the bone, they eat a vast amount of very big variety of fruits and vegetables, they eat a fermented food, you know how they prepare those foods differ culture by culture, but everybody eats the same things. And turns out that again, back to this basics idea, this is the way humans need to eat. And one of the great things about the 800 gram challenge is it totally respects your cultural preferences. You know, if you want to eat kimchi, or beans or white potatoes, because that’s what your culture is into, all those things are fair game. And you can also you know, if you are, you know, if you are keto, or paleo or vegan or vegetarian, you name it, vegetables are still, vegetables and fruit are still part of all of those diets. And you can choose to eat, which ones of them, you know, we just suggest you eat 800 grams. And so just going back to what you said at the beginning, it’s just been, for us as individuals as sort of refugees of diet culture, it’s been so lovely to have this style of eating that feels expansive, that allows us to be connected to our community, that allows us to sit and have dinner with our kids every night and be normal and not weirdos. And you know, and on top of that, we just feel better. When we eat that many fruits and veggies.

Kelly Starrett  1:16:52

One of the things that we’re doing here is there is calorie control built into this, you know, as Juliet pointed out, a melon is like over a pound and it’s like 250 calories. I mean, that’s not even a cookie at Starbucks. I mean, so, you know, that’s an entire melon. So what you’re going to see here is, when we ask people to increase their micronutrient intake, they end up being having high satiety, they feel good, they have more fiber, I mean, show me a study where fiber doesn’t improve someone’s life. On the other side, though, we also want to make sure that people are getting enough protein, which again, has high satiety, do we say what kind of protein? Do you have to eat only ribeye? No, you don’t. So what we know is that oftentimes when people are struggling with and this is, look how we got to this or how I got to this, I didn’t want even touch nutrition, because I thought it was like third rail. It’s not my jam. But I’m not going to talk about the health of your tissue quality or your healing or ability to maintain your muscle mass, unless you hit specific protein amounts per. So we are really reasonable. We’re actually like 0.7 to one gram of protein per pound body weight, depending on your activity and your age. If you’re older, you need closer to a gram of protein per pound body weight. And what people are going to struggle with is, oh my gosh, how do I eat all this food, which is what no one on a diet ever said ever, oh my god, I have to eat all this food again, this is terrible. And tomorrow, I’m gonna have to eat this more food. But if we’re gonna get to the bottom of you having healthy badass tissues that are resilient, you need micronutrients. You need protein, you need fiber period. And that’s what makes a durable human.

Clint Murphy  1:18:27

And one of the key things and slight digression, I’m a survivor, like you guys, it sucks that my friends will say, hey, dinner party, like what, what weird diet you on now. And I’m like to no no no, I’m back to normal. But you when you when you talked about the protein, one of the things I hadn’t heard a long time ago, but I’m hearing it more and more than you talked about it is this idea of that we can only absorb so much in one sitting. So we’re going for like I’m getting older I want a gram per pound of body weight. Two things, a gram per pound of target body weight, because the target weights lower than the current weight. And the second question is, I’m only supposed to eat I think you said somewhere in the 50 to 60 grams per sitting is there, what’s the upward limit on that per sitting?

Kelly Starrett  1:19:25

Erase that from your head, look if you can only eat one meal a day, because that’s when you get to do it, do it get it all? Okay. Ultimately, the research supports that spreading that protein out is probably better for your lean body mass and how you feel, you know, we’re seeing this whole Ozempic sort of wasteland go through the United States right now where people are taking a Ozempic. And the real problem is that people are losing most of the weight is lean muscle mass. And that actually doesn’t have to be the case. They’re just not eating and when they eat a little bit they get full. And so what we’re seeing is that wow, if you turn that down or fill it up with other things, it’s going to be really difficult. Ultimately, what we want people to do is really prioritize these base things. What you just did is hijack the conversation. Is it 50, is it 52 grams, is it 54 grams? Show me in a week that you actually hit your number of grams, consistently for a week. And then we can have a conversation about is it 51 grams or 52 grams, because what we see consistently is that everyone undereats their protein, they don’t recover. And they’re wondering why they’re not making gains. Why is their splits time sucking, why their tissues suck? When we just get you above that first, you notice we said you could do with beans, you could do it with tofu, you can do it with seitan, you can eat any way you want. But show me you’re gonna get to this level. And that is research supported. So ultimately, if you eat a 60 gram protein bolus, you’re probably going to be full, especially when you put a bunch of fruits and veggies, it’s probably gonna be easier to spread that out. We played around with time restricted eating for a while. And one of the problems with time restricted eating or intermittent fasting for me was that I missed a huge feeding window. And so that by the time the afternoon came around, I was like, holy crap, I’m gonna suck on the bike today, because I’m underfed. And I was. And then I ended up eating like a whole chicken and a jar of peanut butter at like 11 o’clock at night. And that is not a recipe for a great night’s sleep, let me tell you. So ultimately, I ditched time restricted eating because it made it really difficult for me to get enough protein and enough fruits and vegetables in my day.

Juliet Starrett  1:21:24

One of the things we like about this approach to it, as Kelly mentioned, is it really is a lot of food. And so it’s, you know that it’s a high satiety way of eating. But you know, we also live in a universe where like, cookies are awesome. And, you know, people have celebrations and they involve dessert and fun things and like, you know, my, my food, kryptonite is popcorn. And it turns out, though, that you can actually buffer some poor choices if you have walked enough, and gotten enough movement in your life and gotten a little bit of exercise and eaten, you know, plenty of fruits and vegetables. And so you know, there is a way to sort of actually occasionally eat some things that are fun, you know, back to like, eating is fun. As a human, it’s one of the fun things we do, it’s actually, you can create an environment where you can eat some things that are fun, as long as you’re getting tons of movement in your day. And you’re making sure that the vast majority of your calories are coming from fruits and vegetables and protein.

Kelly Starrett  1:22:20

Let me give you an example, one of our friends, Ryan Fisher, has this great idea. He’s like, get one of those mixed berry bags, it’s in the frozen section from Walmart or wherever you want to eat it. If you can afford organic berries, do it, it’s fine. And he’s like, pull it out of the freezer, and then just put it in your fridge. And when you are ready to like have dinner and you’re ready to snap,  switch to this king and I was like eat a pound of fruit, just go for it, the thing kind of creates a soft, mushy mess, dude, we’re talking about 250 calories here of micronutrients. And you’re gonna be stuffed, and I guarantee you can actually finish the whole bag because you’re a wimp, I challenge you to eat the whole bag of frozen fruit when it’s all smooshy. And you’re gonna be like, I can’t do it, it’s too much. And then we can really get to the conversation. You know, people when we said it before, we’re trying to get people to be consistent before the heroic, we see a lot of heroic behaviors that end up falling off because they’re not sustainable. The game here is how do I make these changes in my life in a meaningful way, so it doesn’t feel like a fad or a gimmick, then you can just turn up those dials and turn down those dials as you need.

Juliet Starrett  1:23:27

And Kelly and I, you know, our strategy and what has worked for us and why we wrote this book is that what we found is doing these basics, these 10 things consistently has made the biggest difference it gives us room to be able to eat a cookie every so often and you know have fun eating with our kids and travel and you know feel good in our bodies like these basic things have been very expansive.

Clint Murphy  1:23:51

I love that. And so I won’t worry about the minor details till I get the macro – forest for the trees. The So the question I want to end on from the book to make sure that we get it in because you already said sleep is the linchpin in a quote that you have. It’s the hub that everything revolves around. Aside from the innumerable ways that sufficient sleep sustains the body from cardiovascular health and cognitive function to how we experience pain. It also gives you the energy to follow all the recommendations that we talked about and that the two of you share in the book. If you’re sleeping well you’ll not only be more apt to perform the nine out of other vital sign physical practices, you’ll get more out of them too. So for sleep, how do you want the listener to test that and what does good look like and what would you what would you to say your top two or three things that each of you have for sleep are and then I really want to know, Juliet, where do I get a weighted thermal regulating blanket because that sounds like money.

Juliet Starrett  1:24:58

I’ll just say what our minimums are you know, we think seven hours is sort of the minimum that’s a survival number.

Kelly Starrett  1:25:04

How long will you need be in bed to get seven hours of sleep?

Juliet Starrett  1:25:07

You need to be in bed for eight hours to get seven hours of sleep. And but we found that again like Kelly mentioned eight hours is the magic number you know if you want to.

Kelly Starrett  1:25:15

How long do I need to be in bed to get eight hours of sleep?

Juliet Starrett  1:25:18

Nine hours. And you know, if you want to lose weight, recover from surgery, get over an injury, you know, address pain, I mean, you name it if you if you want to feel good, eight hours is really the magic number. Now I will say because someone on this is listening to this, there is a weird genetic mutation that like point oh, 2% of people have that those five, five hours of sleep a night, and no one listening to this has that genetic mutation. It’s not true. Everybody needs seven to eight hours of sleep a night. And look, again, I want to go back to this idea.

Kelly Starrett  1:25:50

And if you’re a triathlon, triathlon person, nine hours, yeah, it’s nine or 10.

Juliet Starrett  1:25:56

Kelly and I live a very full life. And we often have to travel for work, we love to travel for fun. So we do have nights where we don’t make it. But again, back to this consistency idea, we’re looking at the making sure we get that amount of sleep as many times as we can in any calendar year and compound that amount of sleep. And so you know, we’ve got to go to Dallas this week, we’re probably going to have at least one night where we sleep only five hours. But we don’t just give up on that and say, okay, this is our new reality. We just say okay, this is this is our reality for now. And then when we get home, we need to get back on our game and get back to eight hours of sleep. And you know, what Kelly was asking me earlier is really important. We’re not huge fans of tracking that much data, we do track a few things, I think the most important thing people can track is their steps. And pretty much everybody can do that now because your phone has a step tracker built into it. And so if you have your phone with you, you’re tracking your steps. And you know, most watches, including the Apple Watch, and a lot of watches people are wearing now track steps. But I think the second thing, and I don’t think you have to track it all the time. But I do think it’s really helpful to get some basic sleep information. Kelly and I like an Oura ring, there’s lots of ways you can track your sleep, the biggest thing we learned from tracking your sleep is exactly what we were talking about earlier, which is, it’s natural for pretty much everyone to lose almost an hour of sleep with what are totally normal wake cycles in a night. And so, you know, we’ve had so many people approaching me like I go to sleep at 11 wake up at seven, eight hours of sleep. And we’re like, that’s actually seven hours of sleep in most cases. And so, you know, I think, to us, that’s the most important insight we’ve gotten from tracking our sleep. It’s fun to look at your heart rate variability and some of the other metrics, but we don’t really do anything with that data. You know, what we know is that if we’ve gotten 8 hours sleep, we check the box, and then do you want me to tell you about my weighted blanket. So I have a thing called the chilly blanket made by a company called Sleep Me and it’s a weighted blanket, so it makes me feel like I’m sleeping inside a womb. So it’s a heavy weighted blanket. But for anyone who’s used a weighted blanket, the downfall of them is that you wake up two hours into the night and you’re 1000 degrees. And you have to cast the weighted blanket off. Or if you need to get up and go to the bathroom. It’s like a workout to get the blanket off your body. But you know, this thing is actually cycling cold water through the blanket. And so you can keep it on your body for the whole night. Even if you you know even if you warm up at night and you don’t wake up in wake up sweating or have to cast the blanket off. You know, but I would say this is definitely a sleep optimization strategy. The things that we do that are much more consistent and important are the basics. You know, we make sure our room is cold. We both sleep with an eye mask. We like to sleep with earplugs, we basically want to make our bedroom like a cocoon that is just focused on sleeping only if you want to be awesome. Only if you want to be awesome.

Clint Murphy  1:28:54

The And probably too micro, are there any favorite sleep masks that you both enjoy?

Juliet Starrett  1:29:02

Oh yeah, I mean yeah, I’ll hit that one. I love the Mind Fold. We first we actually live in community, Marin County that is home to the National Center for Guide Dogs for the Blind. And so all over our neighborhood are people training guide dogs and the way that they train guide dogs is actually by using this mask called the Mindfold mask. And I was like oh okay, well if if it can work to train guide dogs like this thing’s got to keep light out so you know, that’s the one I use. Kelly doesn’t love the way that one feels on his face. So he uses, do you know what brand you use? Manta. He uses a Manta but really anything to just cut a bunch of that extra light.  Don’t be precious.

Kelly Starrett  1:29:40

You know, they’re cheap. Just give it a shot.

Clint Murphy  1:29:42

I wear I wear eye mask and earplugs as well.


Kelly Starrett  1:29:45

You’re gonna have to train yourself to do it. That’s okay. Yeah,


Juliet Starrett  1:29:47

it’s Yeah, give it a few nights because it’s hard to get used to it at the beginning and then once you get used to it, every room the rest of you sleep and the rest of your life is dark. The other thing to the to the extent that we are like children know everybody when they have little kids, they totally understand what a sleep routine is right? You take the bath, you do the you know, read the books, right? All kids are in a sleep routine. Well, we don’t lose that when we become adults. And so one of the things we love about the eyemask and earplug routine is we take those things with us traveling, and it really helps our sleep when we’re traveling. Because, you know, it’s we’ve taught our brains that putting the eye mask on, and the earplugs in is one of the ways we signal ourselves to sleep. And if we’re in a weird environment, it’s like this little thing we’ve brought from home signals our brain, okay, you may be in a weird Ramada Inn in Dallas, Texas, but you can still sleep.


Clint Murphy  1:30:34

And never ever forget it. Because it sucks.


Juliet Starrett  1:30:41

True fact we’ve done that too.

Clint Murphy  1:30:43

I want to be very respectful of your time. Is there anything that jumps out at you, we went pretty wide pretty deep through the book, so much more to cover. But is there anything that you want to make sure that we didn’t leave out for the listeners.

Juliet Starrett  1:30:58

I just wanted to add that I think our goal here was to make you know, and what we think is so revolutionary about this book is that it’s comprehensive, you can certainly pick up a book on sleep and exercise and nutrition. In fact, you can pick up 1000s of books on all those subjects every single chapter. But we wanted to say okay, we want to give people a book that they can put on their coffee table, they can revisit multiple times a year and check in to see how they’re doing on these basics of health. And we think that’s what’s really so unique about this book. It’s like you can just read this one book, you can keep an eye on the things in this book and you’re going to be pretty good and pretty durable as a human.

Kelly Starrett  1:31:35

We also created a video companion course on the builttomove.com so you can just enter your email and we’ll give you a little drip email every day for 21 days explaining the challenge and just supporting the book

Clint Murphy  1:31:47

That’s perfect. I thought a videos for some of the tests and would be an absolute beautiful addition so to hear you did that is perfect. And for our listeners, where can they find you guys?

Juliet Starrett  1:32:02

We are at builttomove.com and you can learn more about our other company The Ready State there as well. Kelly is @thereadystate on Instagram and I am @julietstarret on Instagram.

Clint Murphy  1:32:14

Perfect. All of that will be in our show notes. Thanks for joining me, I really appreciate it.

Kelly Starrett  1:32:19

Thank you very much Clint.

Clint Murphy  1:32:24

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